TAMIKA LEE: Okay. Can you tell me your full name?
CATHERINE HOGUE: My name is Catherine-with a C-last name is
Hogue, H-O-G-U-E.
TAMIKA LEE: Okay. I understand that you are retired and work
[inaudible] at the employment center, which is also known as the
unemployment center. Can you tell me, what kind of work did you
do before?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I started out my first, well, we maybe don't
wanna go to my first job. I delivered newspapers-that was my
first job. The one that I got after I completed high school was
with the Telephone Company, AT & T. And they didn't hire a lot
of African-Americans in Champaign. As a matter of fact, there
was only one that I knew worked there, Mrs. Bowles, who also was
a lifelong member at Salem. I went to Chicago and got employed
at the Phone Company, subsequently transferred back to
Champaign, Illinois where I was born and raised. And I worked
there for 25 years. I was a supervisor and chief union steward.
As a matter of fact, I was probably only the second
African-American that was supervisor at the Telephone Company.
TAMIKA LEE: You also told me that your education didn't really
help prepare you for what you did for a living.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Well, I think my parents kind of did. I know
that my education had some involvement in that because in
Operator Services, you do have to be able to speak distinctly,
clearly. My mother used to tell me I need to modulate. I had to
learn what that meant, because I speak very loud. So I've
learned to modulate.
TAMIKA LEE: I speak low.
CATHERINE HOGUE: You do speak very low.
TAMIKA LEE: Earlier you stated you were born in Champaign and
moved to Chicago. How was it like moving back to Champaign with
five children?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Well, actually I was told when I left Chicago
that I probably wouldn't be able to make it with those five
children, being a single parent. But I was determined. Both my
parents at that time were living in 1973, so it was relatively
easy when I moved back to Champaign, having both parents, three
sisters, who still reside in Champaign-Urbana. My brothers, of
course, moved away. So I had all of that. I still have family
support.
TAMIKA LEE: I also understand that both of your neighborhoods in
Champaign-Urbana and Chicago were mixed. Do you think that that
was the best for your life and your children's lives?
CATHERINE HOGUE: For my children, I know that it was important
that I move them out of the Chicago area. Because the schools
that they attended, all of the teachers were black, all of the
students were black. Other children, of course, could go out of
the area to attend school and had the finances that allowed them
to move away. I attended all black schools. Everything north of
University Avenue, as I said, was all black. Our teachers were
all black. My first exposure to-well, I shouldn't say my first
exposure, 'cause I used to work with my mother, so I know a lot
of Caucasians. But in the school system, my first exposure was
in the 7th grade. It was like overwhelming. You know? It was
something that you had never seen. You hadn't interacted with
them. You hadn't been in gym class. You didn't take showers with
them. So that was pretty much the first exposure.
TAMIKA LEE: I understand you became a member of Salem Church
when you were 12.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Yes.
TAMIKA LEE: How long before you became a member did you attend
Salem Baptist?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I probably attended since I was able to walk.
That's where my mother attended. As a matter of fact, my mother
was always at Salem, and we went to Sunday School even though
she was preparing dinner and preparing to be at church. But it
was our obligation to go to Sunday School every Sunday. So I was
a member long before I became 12 years old.
TAMIKA LEE: [inaudible] and I became a member at 12. How many
years back did you teach Sunday school?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Oh, let's see. It was probably like 40 years.
TAMIKA LEE: Forty years?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Mm-hmm. So now you wanna know how old I am.
[chuckle]
TAMIKA LEE: I'm not gonna ask that question.
CATHERINE HOGUE: I don't have a problem 'cause I know I'm
blessed. I have five adult children, 10 grandchildren, 'cause
each of my children had two. So I have five children, 10
grandchildren, right now I have seven great-grandchildren,
working on two more.
TAMIKA LEE: Hard job.
CATHERINE HOGUE: And they're spread all over everywhere. All of
them did not remain in Champaign, by the way.
TAMIKA LEE: You said that the church, when you attended it when
you were younger, it didn't really talk about racism, but it
talked about education. What did it talk about education?
CATHERINE HOGUE: We just talked about being who-always being
yourself and continuing to learn. I consider myself a lifelong
learner because I learned early on that you're never too old to
learn. One of the things my mom used to tell me, I continue to
tell my children that I will probably graduate from college by
the time I'm 65 or 70.
TAMIKA LEE: The elementary school you attended was Lawhead?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Mm-hmm.
TAMIKA LEE: Which was 1st to 3rd grade?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Yes.
TAMIKA LEE: Okay.
CATHERINE HOGUE: If I remember correctly at this age. [chuckle]
TAMIKA LEE: And your junior high school you attended was called
Willard?
CATHERINE HOGUE: That was like the 4th through the 6th grade.
TAMIKA LEE: Fourth through the 6th?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Yeah. It was Willard School, and just like I
said, that's right now the parking lot for Salem Baptist Church.
That's where my school stood. So everything was within walking
distance.
TAMIKA LEE: Can you tell me, what school or schools did you
attend after Willard School?
CATHERINE HOGUE: It was Central High School, but it wasn't a
high school. It was the junior high school when I attended.
Edison was the high school. And then, they kind of flip flopped.
So Edison then became the junior high, and Central became the
high school, which is where I graduated.
TAMIKA LEE: Okay. You stated that your education, no, your
counselors, didn't encourage you to do big things in life, like
going to college. Which schools were they?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Both schools. 'Cause I think in junior high
school you should be always encouraged to further your
education. We were--It was suggested at the time that we take
classes like typing and home ec. Those are the kind of--And
maybe that was some racism that was subtle, 'cause I wasn't
aware that they were telling me, or subtly saying to me,
"Catherine, you're probably going to be a housekeeper or a
secretary. You know, so you need to prepare yourself for these
kind of things. Take home ec. Take sewing. Take secretarial
classes." Those were the kind of things that they encouraged me
at school. But like I say, fortunately I had a mother who was an
educator and she said, "You can be anything you wanna be." And I
still get that reinforcement from my siblings.
TAMIKA LEE: Do you remember what race was the teacher who told
you this?
CATHERINE HOGUE: In middle school-not middle school-junior high
school and high school, all of my teachers were Caucasian. They
were all white. I don't remember when I got to junior high and
high school that I had any African-American teachers.
TAMIKA LEE: Were there any teachers or counselors that tried to
encourage you?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Oh, back when I was in grade school, since all
of my teachers were African-American, it kind of reinforced the
same things that my mother said, "Catherine, you can do
anything. You've just got to sit down and focus on it." 'Cause I
was a real active person. I loved sports. Liked to play sports.
Those were where my interests were, because my dad was in
sports. As a matter of fact, when I left the 6th grade and I
still had siblings there, my dad was a physical education
teacher at Willard School, so you know how my siblings felt,
"Here comes dad." Yeah.
TAMIKA LEE: When they tried to-when they discouraged you, how
did that make you feel at the moment?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Well, I think at that particular time it makes
you feel maybe they're right. You know? They've been with me for
a year. Maybe they see some things that I'm just not aware of.
But always when you leave school and you have these parents that
say, "Don't let that discourage you. Know how to do this. Just
focus on that." So it didn't - I mean, it psychologically
affected me, but as far as doing what I wanna do, I still have
that same feeling even at this age, that I can accomplish
anything that I set out to do.
TAMIKA LEE: What kind of grades did you get when you attended an
all black school?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I think my grades kind of stayed the same from
elementary all the way through high school, and it's basically C
all the way down the line. I'd be so encouraged if I ever could
move it up to a B. But my mom always felt that if this is your
best, this is good. If you bring it up to-I mean, you can always
try harder, and I still encouraged my children, my
grandchildren, and will do the same with my great-grandchildren.
If you make a C, and you work a little harder and it moves up to
a B, maybe if you work a little harder you can move to an A.
Because I think everybody, when they start out in 1st grade,
they make straight A's. You know? And you hope that continues,
but it doesn't always continue.
TAMIKA LEE: Do you feel you got a good education?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I feel like I have an excellent education, not
necessarily from Unit 4, but with all of the things that are
around me, my parents, sisters, neighbors, I think that I have
an excellent education.
TAMIKA LEE: Which school experiences were life shaping or life
changing?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I think going from elementary into junior high
school, simply because you're introduced to an entirely new
culture. Like I said, I'd not been around some of the people
that I associated with in junior high school. Their parents
owned a lot of things, they had a lot of things. I can remember
wanting to wear cashmere sweaters. And it's like who can afford
cashmere? But I also remember when my mom worked at the
University of Illinois, so we'd get what we'd call
hand-me-downs. I mean, whatever people discarded, and my mother
always taught us that you never reject any of this. If somebody
is giving you something, even if you're never gonna wear it, you
don't tell them you don't want it. You're going to accept that
graciously and since I was, as my grandkids say, not very tall,
all of my sisters and brothers are taller than I am, so I ended
up wearing a lot of hand-me-downs. But you learn how to be proud
of those things, and that was just something that we were
taught, which is something I think young people lose.
TAMIKA LEE: Do you remember any point in your life when you felt
discriminated. Earlier I remember you said you knew a lot of
Caucasians.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Especially when I got into the work force,
because one of the reasons-I had applied at the Phone Company
here in Champaign, right out of high school. I knew I knew
everything and could do this job. Could not get hired in
Champaign. I subsequently moved to Chicago, got hired in
Chicago. Five years later I'm back in Champaign as probably the
second black supervisor at the Telephone Company. So that was
where I first--I guess when you get into the workforce, then you
really recognize-the lady that interviewed me, she said,
"Catherine, what do you think you could do?" And so, I just
asked, I said, "What's your job title?" And she told me. I said,
"I can do what you do. I can have people walk in the door and
say, 'What do you think you're qualified to do?'" So I just had
that feeling that there wasn't anything that I couldn't do. And
I still have that feeling.
TAMIKA LEE: Earlier you said they told you that you weren't
really college material. Were there certain students they were
telling that to?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Oh, I'm sure a majority of the
African-Americans students, they didn't feel were college
material. I mean, we weren't pushed to be prepared for college.
You need to take-only my dad told me, because once you got ready
to go into the 9th grade, you had to take college preparatory.
They're saying, "Catherine, if you don't want to take math, you
don't have to take anymore math after 8th grade." So those were
the kind of subtle things that would not prepare you. Because
you know English, math, those are subjects that you always have
to have if you're planning to go.
TAMIKA LEE: Right. Were there any Caucasians that they ever told
this to? Do you know of any Caucasians?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I wouldn't be aware of that, 'cause when you
talk to counselors, it's usually one-on-one, but we didn't go to
career planning classes because as a supervisor at the Phone
Company, I taught career planning courses. I would go into the
different schools and talk about the career that I was in and
how I started and just moved on up. And those were the kind of
things that were encouraging to me, to see somebody that looks
like me, that can do things. You know?
TAMIKA LEE: When you went in for the interview for the Phone
Company, they told you they didn't really hire--
CATHERINE HOGUE: Actually they'd never really say that. They'd
just say they're not hiring right now or we'll get back to you.
They don't say they're not gonna hire me because I'm black.
TAMIKA LEE: No, I meant-did that shape a different view of
Caucasians?
CATHERINE HOGUE: No, I mean, I think that I understood. They had
never met a person like me. You know, somebody that was
determined. And so, like I said, when I left Champaign, I said I
want to work as an operator. I've always aspired, even if you
start there, there are advancement opportunities. I didn't see a
lot of that in other employment locally except with the
University of Illinois or Kraft or some factory or plant, and
that wasn't what I wanted to do. I enjoyed working with people,
and I jokingly now tell people the Phone Company paid me to do
what I do best-and that's talk!
TAMIKA LEE: How did your teachers treat you on a normal basis?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I think they all liked the personality that I
had. It sometimes was mischevious, you know, but I think that
they appreciated that. They would always have me reading or
speaking because my mother always stressed - my dad stressed
handwriting. My mom stressed enunciation, modulation, how you
articulate. So I think people just like to hear me talk.
TAMIKA LEE: How did your classmates treat you?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Fine. They talked about how not very tall I was
but I never had any problems. I one young man, and I still call
him young man--I still see-he used to be my-he called himself my
bodyguard, because he walked me to and from school if he thought
somebody was gonna be picking on me, 'cause like I say, since I
was 12 years old, I've not grown. I've been the same size. So I
have to get accustomed to my height. And it always makes me feel
good when people say, "Catherine, how tall are you?"
TAMIKA LEE: Did you play any sports in school?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I played all sports. In school, I didn't
because young ladies weren't allowed to play anything except, I
think, basketball, and they could run track. But as I say, both
of my brothers were very active in sports. My dad was very
active. He first played, then he coached. Then he umpired. So I
played basketball, football, volleyball, run track, not in
school, because they just didn't have those programs for young
ladies, and now they do.
TAMIKA LEE: Was there any favorite memory that you had in
playing sports?
CATHERINE HOGUE: When I played or now?
TAMIKA LEE: Any time.
CATHERINE HOGUE: I just like all sports. My dad said you need to
first learn the sport, know the rules. So I can enjoy baseball,
basketball, football. And my son, when he got married, 'cause
his wife never liked to watch sports, like the Super Bowl. He
would always come over. He'd say, "Mom, I know you're gonna be
watching the Super Bowl." So I watch them all, and I really do
enjoy sports, 'cause I understand it.
TAMIKA LEE: So was there any different memories?
CATHERINE HOGUE: No, my memories though are just that I think
that I probably could have done more to go on to college, but I
don't dwell on that, because I know that I still have an
opportunity if I choose to do that.
TAMIKA LEE: In school, were there any clubs you belonged to?
CATHERINE HOGUE: No, I don't think we had-I just didn't see
myself in the photography club or any of-and I never aspired to
be class president or any of those things. I just wanted to go
there, learn what I needed to learn, finish those 12 years, and
be done.
TAMIKA LEE: Did your parents have any high expectations for you?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I don't think-if they did, they never shared
that with me. They just always encouraged me to do my best, to
be the best that I could be. You know? To be fair to other
people. And I tried to do that. But they never expected,
"Catherine is going to be the valedictorian." They never
expected those-at least they didn't share that information with
me.
TAMIKA LEE: What people have shaped who you are, like your role
models?
CATHERINE HOGUE: First of all, my mom was my main role model. I
have sisters that are younger that I still look up to. I don't
know that there's any one person, except my mom, that comes out
as a person that I really would like to emulate.
TAMIKA LEE: How were you treated in your community?
CATHERINE HOGUE: As a young person?
TAMIKA LEE: Uh-huh.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Like I said, my family was born and raised
here, my mom and dad. People had high respect and regard for the
two of them. So I think that we, as children, were always highly
respected simply because of who our parents were.
TAMIKA LEE: Did your family and friends ever talk about any of
the ongoing Civil Rights battles to end segregation?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I don't know that my family talked about it,
but I know as I got older and became involved with organizations
like NAACP, Concerned Citizens for Better Neighborhoods, League
of Women Voters, and as a union steward with the Telephone
Company, there is discrimination everywhere, you know? And we
have to learn how to deal with that.
TAMIKA LEE: At what point in your life did you first realize of
Brown vs. Board of Education?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I think as my children-when they came back-we
came from Chicago to Champaign, and they entered into the
Champaign schools, and we lived just one block north of
University Avenue. Washington School was right up the street.
Marquette School, which was still an elementary school, was just
on the other side. But they were bused from to 3rd and Park, or
2nd and Park, to Bottenfeld. Something is wrong with that
picture. For them to have to get on the bus and ride all the way
that far, when they could walk across the street here or three
blocks up the street to Washington.
TAMIKA LEE: If you had a message for kids today, young
African-Americans, what would it be?
CATHERINE HOGUE: It would be to be the best that they can be,
because you can do, just as my mother told me, anything that
your little heart desires. You can be anything that you wanna
be. Everything takes a little work, and you learn that. But you
certainly can accomplish anything, even if you think about it.
Hey, if you're not sure, ask somebody. They will let you know
how to get that done.
TAMIKA LEE: Thank you. I enjoyed the interview.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Oh, I loved it. It's always my pleasure!
TAMIKA LEE: I'm gonna ask Jessica does she have any follow-up
questions. Jessice, do you have any follow-up questions?
Jessica: [inaudible]
TAMIKA LEE: Thank you.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Thank you!
TAMIKA LEE: Thank you so much.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Thank you for inviting me.
TAMIKA LEE: Nice meeting you.
Q: I wondered if you could follow up with the busing thing, you
know, how kids were bused. And she said she thought it wasn't
very good. I wonder if maybe you could pursue this.
TAMIKA LEE: I mean, how did your kids feel about it?
CATHERINE HOGUE: You know, I found that I used to walk them to
the bus almost every morning. Even though I worked all night,
I'd get off at 7:00, walk 'em down to-you know where the Don
Moyers Boys' and Girls' Club is? They caught the bus there. I'd
walk 'em to the bus. They would be, I think there's so much
children out there, there's so many opportunities for arguments,
fights, rough housing. They looked like they had been at school
all day by the time they'd get up on the bus, 'cause - and
they'd stand there for so long 'cause there was no place to go
inside. That was when the Boys' Club was just the one little
building. So they had to be outside waiting on the bus. And that
was everybody. Most of the children from Washington Street all
the way back to the north side of University Avenue that would
go to Bottenfeld. Then I'm not sure where the dividing lines
were with the different districts or which buses they'd catch.
But there would be so many children, 'cause there used to be a
lot of houses in that area. Now a lot of them have been torn
down or moved. But just the-and I asked my youngest son, who now
is 37, if he thought that that made a difference in his
education. I had one that was able to attend Washington School.
Then you had to be in a gifted or special program, so he could
go to Washington, but the others went to Bottenfeld. I just
think it would have been a lot better had they been able to
leave home at a decent time, walk to school, which would only be
a couple of blocks.
TAMIKA LEE: Did you ever go and try to talk to the head of the
board?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Oh, I still attend some of the school board
meetings. But, yeah, I've done that. John Lee Johnson and I
talked about some of the problems that were going on, and there.
still continue to be problems in the system. Basically my
children, at that time, were bused purely for desegregation, not
for education. They wanted them to go to Bottenfeld because we
need this number over here, and that's why they were bused. And
I continue to say that-purely for segregation.
TAMIKA LEE: Right. Now they go by where you live at.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Well, now they have choices. Then it went by
where you lived. If you live in this square, this is the school.
If you lived in this square, this is the school. Now at least
parents have a choice, even down to kindergarten. They can
choose if there are slots available, where they want their
children to go.
TAMIKA LEE: So you feel that's for the best?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Oh, absolutely everybody should have a choice.
You know, you have choices.of where you wanna go to college,
where you wanna work. You have choices. You just have to be
ready to make them.
TAMIKA LEE: Sometimes it's kind of hard.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Sure.
TAMIKA LEE: Hard decisions to make in life.
CATHERINE HOGUE: But that's the way life is. But you still have
to do it. There's gonna be a lot of tough decisions, but you
have to do-because I can remember as a teenager, I didn't have
to make the decisions that I had to make as a parent for my
teenagers. So there are lots of tough decisions.
TAMIKA LEE: It is hard being a teenager.
CATHERINE HOGUE: I know. I've raised some, and I was one. Yeah,
it was difficult. But we survived.
TAMIKA LEE: As long as you've got your family.
CATHERINE HOGUE: When you get to be my age, you'll understand it
better. Yeah, and like I say, my sisters, three of them who are
in Champaign-I have a brother in Arizona and one in Atlanta. All
of my sisters are here, only one of them is older. She's in a
nursing home right now. I can call them and ask them anything
and they will be very honest. They don't try to, you know,
soft--
TAMIKA LEE: I used to think that was being mean, but they're
just telling the truth.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Yeah, they will be very --
Q: What adjustments did you have going from an all-black school
to an all-white school?
CATHERINE HOGUE: Just to see the difference in treatment and the
difference in instructors. Because when I went to an all-black
school, they could make things that were specific to
African-Americans. When you go into a mixed school, then you
deal with we're talking about a whole broad spectrum of society.
To me, like I say, even though my mother had worked around them,
I'd been around them when I was working with my mother. I'd not
been in a classroom with them. And it just seemed that, as my
daughter once said, they would not call on you if you had your
hand raised because they just assumed you're not prepared. Like
we can't be as prepared as you are. And they may have been
right, but I can remember my mother saying, "Just continue to go
in there, raise your hand, and hope that they call on you." But
you could see, even as a young person that there was a
difference.
TAMIKA LEE: When you were at this school and they didn't call on
you when you had your hand-do you ever feel that when they knew
that you didn't know the question, did they ever call on you
when your hand didn't come up?
CATHERINE HOGUE: No, I just-sometimes I felt ignored, which is
why-there were things that we could do for extra credit, like
book reports and history reports. And so, I'd do those kind of
things just to keep my grades where they needed to be, simply
because the teacher never-or, I had one teacher that called on
me once, and I think that I misspoke or said something that
wasn't right. And that encouraged me to take a speech class.
Because I couldn't get up in front of the class and talk. I knew
that I needed this speech class that would help me be able to do
that.
TAMIKA LEE: Well, thank you.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Well, you're entirely welcome. Thank you for
inviting me. It's been my pleasure.
Q: Thank you.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Did we do okay?
Q: You did! I wanna ask you [inaudible] children [inaudible] Are
they in town?
CATHERINE HOGUE: One-oh, I've got a 45-year-old? One, two, three
of them are--
Q: They might be [inaudible] Do you think that they might be
able to be interviewed?
CATHERINE HOGUE: I can check with them and see. I mean, they're
here.
Q: Okay. 'Cause I know that busing started in '66.
CATHERINE HOGUE: But I was gone. See, I left Champaign in 1960.
I didn't come back 'til '72.
Q: Okay. So it would've been sometime in the '70's.
CATHERINE HOGUE: Yeah.
Q: Alright. Thank you.
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