| Introduction
This interview was with Rupert Evans. Mr. Evans is a retired dean of the
College of Education at the University of Illinois. He was a member of the
Committee on Equal Education Opportunity, the group that created the
desegregation plan for Champaign’s elementary schools.
Shanika Taylor, a 6th grader at Franklin Middle School, conducted the
interview. Abrecia Cotton, an 8th grader at Franklin Middle School, was the
sound engineer. Shanika and Abrecia are two of 15 Franklin Middle School
students working with WILL-AM 580 on an oral history project documenting the
actual desegregation of Champaign’s public elementary schools in 1968. The
students used parts of this interview for their 60-minute radio documentary,
More Than a Bus Ride: Desegregating Champaign Public Schools.
Shanika conducted the interview on December 16, 2004, at the WILL-AM 580
studio, 300 N. Goodwin Ave. in Urbana. Mr. Evans was 83 years old at the
time of this interview.
SHANIKA: Hello Mr. Evans, my name is Shanika. I am in the WILL project. I go
to Franklin Middle School. I’m in 6th grade and we’re here to learn about
desegregation and segregation and what you did to help it.
BROOKE: My name is Brooke Harris. I am a 7th grader at Franklin Middle
School and I’m a part of the WILL project as well.
SHANIKA: Ok so now were going to start the interview. What is your full
name?
MR. EVANS: Rupert Nelson Evans.
SHANIKA: When were you born?
MR. EVANS: I was born in Terra Haute, Indiana.
SHANIKA: When were you born?
MR. EVANS: Oh, a long time ago.
SHANIKA: How old are you?
MR. EVANS: I’m 83 years old and I was born in 1921.
SHANIKA: What part of town did you grow up in?
MR. EVANS: I lived here in town – I came here in 1950 and I lived on Hessel
Boulevard – on the corner of State and Hessel.
SHANIKA: Was your neighborhood predominantly black or white?
MR. EVANS: It was predominantly white but there were – we had some black
neighbors two blocks from us.
SHANIKA: How did the people relate to one another?
MR. EVANS: Well they related very well in the university but not very well
in church, not very well on social occasions.
SHANIKA: Ok, these are the actual questions – done with general questions.
Where did you go to school?
MR. EVANS: You mean elementary school, grade school, high school, college?
SHANIKA: Throughout your whole school years?
MR. EVANS: Well, I started in Aurora, Illinois in first grade and I skipped
to second grade and then I moved to Marshall, Illinois, went to grade school
there and then I moved to Plainfield, Indiana, went to high school 3 years
there, moved to Frankfurt, Indiana for one year and then I went to six
different universities before I finally got a degree.
SHANIKA: Uh did your siblings go to the same school as you?
MR. EVANS: Yes.
SHANIKA: What was your race?
MR. EVANS: Beg your pardon?
SHANIKA: What was your race?
MR. EVANS: My race? I guess you would call me Caucasian.
SHANIKA: Where did you grow up?
KIMBERLIE (project co-director): Shanika, I’m going to interrupt for one
minute. Um just – you got the background you see that divided line remember?
Now go to the next page and you go ask him about the - his work in the
community….Skip to the next page remember?
SHANIKA: oh yeah. Can I start over?
KIMBERLIE: yeah that’s fine just go to the next page and….
MR. EVANS: oh they can edit it off
KIMBERLIE: Yeah we can edit it out
SHANIKA:: Um, did you have any problems making friends with African
Americans.
MR. EVANS: No. The biggest problem was that I rarely met any African
Americans.
SHANIKA: What made you want to become the dean of the College of Education?
MR. EVANS: That’s a good question and I’m not sure I did want to become the
dean of the college of education but I was asked to be and so I said yes.
SHANIKA: Why did you get involved with the Community of Equal Education
Opportunities?
MR. EVANS: Well again, I was appointed to the Committee I expect in part
because I had served on the Champaign School Board and also of course was
the Dean of the College.
SHANIKA: What were some of the differences in the quality of education
between blacks and whites in Champaign Schools before desegregation or after
desegregation?
MR. EVANS: Well there was not a major change at the time of desegregation
there was a gradual change. One of the things that I did when I first joined
the school board was to ask why we didn’t have more African American
teachers. In those days we called them black teachers and they told me it
was because they didn’t find any. So I told them about a graduate student of
mine who was underemployed in West Virginia and we hired both him and his
wife and they were the first blacks hired in the Champaign schools other
than ones that had been hired from local people to teach in what in those
days were black schools.
BROOKE: : Ok um I have a question. Before you were dean what did you want to
be instead of being a dean of education.
MR. EVANS: I just wanted to be a professor. I loved working –
-at a college?
Yes. I loved working with students. I had taught in high school but I
enjoyed college teaching very much.
BROOKE: Ok thank you.
SHANIKA: In what ways did Champaign schools change in the face of
desegregation?
Mr. EVANS: I’m sorry I don’t understand you.
SHANIKA: In what ways did Champaign schools change in desegregation?
MR. EVANS: Well, the biggest change was that we started busing black
students from schools that had been almost entirely black into schools that
had been predominantly white. That was the most visible change. There were
lots of changes that weren’t so visible.
SHANIKA: Did blacks use the same textbooks as whites before desegregation or
after desegregation?
MR. EVANS: Both before and after.
SHANIKA: After desegregation were blacks placed in non-academic classes like
home economics and shop because it was believed they could not handle the
academic classes like math and science.
MR. EVANS: I don’t think so. The charge was frequently made that this was
done but I saw very few examples of it. There was a tendency to put students
into nonacademic classes based on their lack of interest in some other kinds
of education but this is a sensitive subject with me because I taught
vocational machine shop and I liked having black students as well as white
students.
BROOKE: Um I have another question. Did you feel any – how did you feel when
blacks were being bused?
MR. EVANS: Well I was a little unhappy about - the effect of that first
desegregation plan was to cause almost all of the burden of desegregation to
be placed on the black students because they were bused. Now there was also
a heavy burden placed on rural students because they were coming into town
in buses anyway and so they were sent to whatever schools had vacant spots.
But the major burden was borne by black students.
SHANIKA: When the Champaign schools was desegregated did it change the
access to education with other ways? We mean by that question did it change
like the way the black students got taught other than the way the white
people got taught – I mean white students got taught?
MR. EVANS: Well it changed in several respects the – remember in those days
there were what we called neighborhood schools and there was essentially no
desegregation in residential patterns. So what happened was that the
students in the north end of Champaign were all black and so they went to
the same school and the students in south Champaign and west Champaign were
all white and so they went to white schools and the teachers in the black
schools were mostly black. The students in the white schools were entirely
white and the biggest change – biggest problem that we had in getting more
black teachers was finding a place for them to live. And in those days a
blacks would be turned away by a real estate agent. They would say “We don’t
have any houses. We don’t know of any place where you can rent or where you
could buy.” And that was a major problem.
SHANIKA: Ok did you have a good education?
MR. EVANS: Yes, I think I did.
SHANIKA: What about extracurricular activities? Was there quality at the
desegregated schools for athletics, after school programs or <inaudible>?
MR. EVANS: Well remember in those days the elementary schools were the ones
that were almost entirely segregated. The junior highs were less segregated
and the high school – in those days we just had one high school. And it was
desegregated. Only one school for whites and blacks. Now if you went to the
prom at Central – which was the high school then – the blacks would all be
on one side of the place and whites would all be on the other side and they
would hardly talk to each other.
SHANIKA: How did you think your family and friends felt about desegregation
of the Champaign schools?
MR. EVANS: Well they were in favor of it. But you would be surprised at some
of the people on this desegregation committee. They definitely were not in
favor of it or at least they weren’t sure about it.
SHANIKA: Ok were you happy with that or not?
MR. EVANS: I was unhappy with the segregation.
SHANIKA: Were your family and friends for desegregation or against it and
can you share a story?
MR. EVANS: They were for desegregation.
SHANIKA: Can you share a story or tell us one moment?
MR. EVANS: Well let me tell you a story about a friend of mine. At least I
thought he was a friend. When we invited Mr. Palmer and his wife to come to
teach in the Champaign schools we started looking for a house for them. And
the good friend of mine said when I asked him about this he said “Well I’m
getting ready to sell my house because I’m moving out to the west coast but
I cant sell it to Mr. Palmer” and I said “Why in the world can’t you sell it
to him?” “Well,” he said, “my neighbors would all be upset and so I wont
sell to him.”
SHANIKA: Why were some people weary to consider desegregation for the
greater good of the community?
MR. EVANS: Weary? Of desegregation? Well the biggest argument that you heard
was that “we don’t want desegregation because then that will affect the
residential house market” in other words when I want to sell my house, if I
have a black living close to me then that will decrease the value of my
house. Isn’t that a silly reason? But it was very often given.
SHANIKA: Why were some blacks – I mean why were some blacks afraid to
desegregate? Why do you think some blacks were afraid to desegregate?
MR. EVANS: Well some of the kids were afraid that they would be beaten up by
the white kids. And some of the black kids were very happy where they were
and they didn’t want to be moved.
SHANIKA: Why weren’t white children bussed when desegregation began?
MR. EVANS: That’s a good question. Some white children were bused but they
were mostly the rural children who were already coming in on busses. But I
pressed for there to be two kinds of desegregation. Not only to desegregate
on the basis of race, so you would have the same proportion of black and
white students over the school district but also I wanted to have
socioeconomic desegregation so that poor kids were – kids who had low income
were all over the district. And again some people didn’t want that.
BROOKE: Ok, I have another question. Were you one of the students who were
bused or not?
MR. EVANS: No I was on the school board. I was out of school at the time
this came up.
SHANIKA: Why weren’t white children bussed? How did you feel about what was
going on with the minister and the other person on your committee who felt
differently than you about integration?
MR. EVANS: We had long, long discussions about – one of the questions that
came up essentially was why desegregate? Everything is going along fine now
why change it? And that was the attitude of several people on this
committee. And so we had long discussions about what would be the benefits
of desegregation and eventually we got everybody on the committee convinced
that we ought to have this particular desegregation plan but as we said
earlier the – we recognized that the black students paid the biggest price
for it.
SHANIKA: Describe the meaning of Committee of Equal Education Opportunity.
MR. EVANS: We met at least once a week for a period of about three months.
We had reports from school officials and teachers…administrators about what
would be the effects of desegregation and we had these long discussions
among ourselves about what the benefits would be and what were the
disadvantages of it. And we typically met for about three and a half hours
and then we’d go home and we very often had material to read – statistical
material about how many students of what types were where and we had books
to read about what people had written about segregation and desegregation
and so most of us read those in between the meetings.
SHANIKA: were discussions heated?
MR. EVANS: Heated?
SHANIKA: Yeah, heated.
MR. EVANS: Yes they were heated.
SHANIKA: How so?
MR. EVANS: In the early part of our meeting essentially some people said why
in the world are we here? Everything’s going along fine why are you going to
shake things up? So there were some pretty hot discussions. But then as we
got to know each other better and got further into an understanding of the
subject the discussions were much more civil.
SHANIKA: What were the points of contention?
MR. EVANS: The major points of contention were what were the benefits and
what were the disadvantages? And I was arguing all along that the result of
desegregation would be that students of all types would get to know each
other better. After all they would need to work together after they got out
of schools so it was much better for them to get acquainted in school and
they would learn more as a result of it so that was what I was pushing for
all along.
SHANIKA: How were they solved?
MR. EVANS: Well as with most things political what happened was we ended up
with a compromise and the compromise was that the black students and the
rural students were bused and most of the white students were not bused. We
had a few white students who were bused into predominantly black schools on
the basis of what we would now call a magnet school program but there was
very little of that at that time. But part of the compromise was that I lost
my push to try to get the low income students shifted so that we had more
low income students in all of the schools rather than segregated in a few
schools.
SHANIKA: Were you afraid of people who were against desegregation of the
schools? Why or why not?
MR. EVANS: No I wasn’t afraid. There was never any threat or violence that I
know of in this community. There was in the south but not in
Champaign-Urbana.
SHANIKA: how was the threat of communism used to try to – to stall
desegregation talks?
MR. EVANS: In the 1950s and early 1960s there was a great deal of fear of
communism. The Soviet Union was very very strong and they had put up
satellites before we were able to put up satellites and so there were many
people in this country who were afraid that the Communists were going to
make war on the United States and that we would lose. But in addition to
that there was a - a number of conservative politicians in this country used
Communism as a way of shutting people up. If you would say something or
criticize them they would say “oh you are a Communist” and that meant you
should keep quiet and not say anything. And uh that sounds very silly now
but in those days it was not just silly because there were people who got
fired because they were said to be Communists and if you lose your job
that’s a pretty severe threat.
SHANIKA: How successful was it?
MR. EVANS: was the threat of communism? Well it was quite successful until
finally there was a – the man who did the most to use the threat of
communism politically was a man named McCarthy. Senator Joseph McCarthy was
from Wisconsin and he was a congressman who insisted that there were
thousands of Communists roaming around and that they had to be contained
somehow and when he finally went too far and was criticized severely then
there was much less of this threat of Communism as a way of shutting people
up.
SHANIKA: Were you ever called a Communist?
MR. EVANS: Yes.
SHANIKA: If so what did you do about it?
MR. EVANS: <laughs> I’ll tell you a story. I was on a train going from
Champaign to Chicago for a meeting and a man sat down next to me – he came
from southern Illinois – and he said “You’re pretty young” – this was in
1950 or 51. And I said “yes I am.” He said “what do you do?” I said “I teach
at the University of Illinois” “you’re one of those Communists!” now he said
“I can’t believe you teach at the University of Illinois – you’re too young.
Nobody your age would be a professor.” And I said “yeah that’s right I was
just kidding you. I’m a taxi driver.” <laughs> that’s a true story.
SHANIKA: At any time did you or did anyone else on the committee offend
someone by what you or they said?
MR. EVANS: By what we were?
SHANIKA: By you or what they said? Did you offend anyone on the committee?
MR. EVANS: Yes I probably did in the early stages of the committee but by
the time the committee work was over we were all friends again
SHANIKA: how did the process of desegregating the schools change your way of
thinking about equality?
MR. EVANS: Equality? Well I don’t think it changed me so much except that it
made me very uncomfortably aware that some people were very very upset about
desegregation. I thought it was something that anyone who had done any
reading or thinking would be in favor of. But when we got into these hot
discussions in the committee and with some of the community members outside
the committee it made me very aware of some peoples attitudes that I had not
been aware of before.
SHANIKA: Do you regret helping blacks with integration?
MR. EVANS: No not at all. I do regret not being able to have a more balanced
approach to how desegregation was handled. I felt bad about the black kids
being the ones who were mostly bussed.
SHANIKA: what do you mean by a well balanced?
By What?
What do you mean by balanced? A well-balanced integration.
MR. EVANS: A well-balanced integration? Well I would like to see all
students have an opportunity to study along with people of many different
types. People of different levels of income, people of different races,
people from different countries, people who speak different languages, and
if you can have that kind of opportunity for teaching and learning then I
think that would be what I would call balanced.
SHANIKA: Do you believe your efforts were in vain – given…were…are…today?
MR. EVANS: I beg your pardon?
29:09 SHANIKA: Do you believe your efforts were in vain given where we are
today?
MR. EVANS : Do I feel that the efforts were in vain? No I certainly do not
think they were in vain.
SHANIKA: Why weren’t teachers in west Virginia paid?
MR. EVANS: Why weren’t they? Well they were paid but they weren’t paid very
much. For example, this former student of mine Mr. Palmer taught industrial
arts in high school in West Virginia and he was given 10 cents per student
per year for supplies. Now can you imagine that? Ten cents per pupil per
year. That’s just ridiculous! So he had to go out and scrounge for example
he would go out and he and his students would pick up tin cans and then they
would cut the tin cans open and that gave them some metal so they could work
with because they didn’t have enough money to buy metal.
SHANIKA: Was that common across the US at the time?
MR. EVANS: Well it was more common in the low income parts of the United
States and it was more common in black schools than it was in integrated
schools. Basically most of the – most of the schools that were segregated –
in addition to having the blacks all together they also paid their teachers
less and gave them less material – less money for supplies and books.
SHANIKA: Do you have any idea how the Palmers felt about not getting paid?
MR. EVANS: Well they were very happy when their salary was almost doubled
when they came here. And you can imagine why.
SHANIKA: What were the difficulties the blacks faced in finding a place to
live in Champaign?
MR. EVANS: There were two big problems. One of them was that the real estate
agents who worked with white people did not want to work with black people.
And I suppose that the real estate agents who worked with black people
didn’t want to work with white people but I don’t know that for a matter of
fact. The other problem was the attitude of neighbors. If you would move
into a neighborhood that had been previously all white then the neighbors
were apt to say mean things to you.
SHANIKA: What were some of the problems African Americans had finding a
place to live outside the ghetto?
MR. EVANS: Well those are – that’s what I was just describing. We did call
it the ghetto because blacks essentially couldn’t rent or buy outside of a
very definite area. Now there were a few exceptions. The blacks who lived
just north of Hessel Blvd. had been there for many years and they were
pretty much left alone but that was a small pocket and they were outside the
ghetto. But don’t think it was only the whites who were involved in this.
Some blacks were very happy about the ghetto and Mr. Palmer told me that he
had considerable criticism from some people who lived in north Champaign
because he finally found a house to buy in Urbana and he was told that he
was an Uncle Tom because he was living with whites.
SHANIKA: How did you get Mrs. Palmer a job at Bottenfield?
MR. EVANS: When I asked Mr. Palmer if he would like to move here he said
“yes if you can find a job for my wife” and so I asked and sure they were –
openings were – she was an elementary school teacher and she taught here for
something like oh, 20 years.
SHANIKA: Where did the teachers at the closed schools go?
MR. EVANS: I beg your pardon?
SHANIKA: Where did the teachers at the closed school go?
MR. EVANS: I didn’t get that one word.
Where were the teachers at the closed schools?
The closed?
[background – several different people]: I think she means when the school
closed. Is that what you mean? Yeah when the school closed where did the
teachers go? What did the teachers do for a living? When schools closed
down…
MR. EVANS: Oh well when schools closed down the teachers were moved into
other schools. For example, we closed Colonel Woolf which was a
predominantly white school and we closed – eventually we closed Marquette
and there was another school on state street – State and about Washington….
SHANIKA: Was it an elementary school?
are you talking about the school that is now called um…king school?
Mr. EVANS: no the school now is an apartment house (he means Gregory School)
I know what you’re talking about I just can’t think of the name
MR. EVANS: I can’t think of the name either but at any rate when the school
was closed then the teachers were moved to other schools that remained open.
SHANIKA: What is the EEOC?
Mr. EVANS: The equal opportunities commission – equal employment
opportunities commission. It’s a – an agency that tries to promote equality
in employment – to make sure that people are not discriminated against in
employment
SHANIKA: Does it still exist?
MR. EVANS: Oh yes
SHANIKA: After this some examples can you give about how upper and lower
class caused problems? How did the upper class cause problems and how did
the lower class cause problems?
Mr. EVANS: The upper class kids – well really its middle class kids and
lower class kids because there are very few upper class kids and they mostly
go to private schools. And the middle class kids are expected to go to
college and many of the lower class kids are not expected to go to college
so they’re – they want to take different kinds of classes and they don’t
want to socialize together. You’ll have a situation where you have a prom or
something like that and the upper class kids will all have fancy dresses and
big corsages and drive up in limousines and the lower class kids cant afford
that and its not a good situation but you need to have people experience
that in school because they’re going to experience it after they get out of
school.
BROOKE: Were you a lower or upper class student?
MR. EVANS: That’s a good question. In terms of income as I grew up I was
definitely lower class but in terms of aspirations – what my folks expected
of me we were certainly middle class.
SHANIKA: Were any of your friends upper class?
MR. EVANS: No I don’t think I ever had any upper class friends. I did have a
number of middle class friends but I also had lots of lower class friends.
TAMIKA: Why were black teachers restricted to teaching in the north end of
Champaign?
MR. EVANS: why are they?
TAMIKA: restricted. Why were they restricted?
MR. EVANS: Oh why were they restricted. Well a number of the people who
lived in south and west Champaign said that is the way blacks want to be.
They want to have their own schools and they want to be taught by teachers
who come from the ghetto – they didn’t call it the ghetto but that’s what it
was – and besides we had put letters – we put ads in the paper saying we are
an equal employment opportunity school district and nobody – no black
teachers applied to get jobs here. Well the reason they didn’t apply to get
jobs here is because they didn’t think they were welcome. And very few
people want to go some place where they’re not welcome.
SHANIKA: did desegregation affect your career in any way?
MR. EVANS: I don’t know – not that I know of. There were some people who
were afraid to speak up about desegregation because they were afraid of
being called Communists but uh, after that one experience when I had to say
I was a taxi driver <laughs> I got a little more backbone and didn’t worry
so much about that. So I don’t think it affected me adversely, no.
SHANIKA: Why did you retire?
MR. EVANS: Well I retired because I could earn as much money not working as
I did working but the big thing was it allowed me to control my own
schedule.
TAMIKA: Earlier you stated that you rarely met African Americans so why was
that?
MR. EVANS: Well there were no African Americans in the church that I
attended. There were not African Americans in the bridge clubs that I played
in and there were no African Americans who lived around me. [technical
difficulties] The reason that I rarely saw African Americans was that there
were no African Americans in my church, and there were none in my
neighborhood, there were none in the bridge club that I belong to. The
primary contact that I had with African Americans was at the university
where there were African American students and I had some African American
students that I advised and got quite well acquainted with. But you know, It
was good for me because the first time I went on a trip with one of my black
graduate students we started driving and I said “I’m getting hungry lets
stop and get something to eat” and he said “fine but this is not a good
place to stop” and I said “what do you mean this is not a good place to
stop?” and he said “they wont serve blacks here” and we had to be careful of
what hotels we went into because a number of hotels wouldn’t accept blacks
who wanted to stay there for the night. And I was completely unaware of this
believe it or not at that time. So its contacts like that that help you to
learn.
TAMIKA: ok um early she asked uh how did blacks feel about desegregation and
you stated how some of them felt. How did you get that feeling that they
felt that way?
MR. EVANS: You mean that some of them were not in favor of desegregation?
TAMIKA: Yeah
Mr. EVANS: Well some of them said so. They – and I don’t know all the
reasons why they would say this, but maybe in some cases it was that they
thought that it would help their employment prospects if they said that they
didn’t want to desegregate.
can you hold on just a second? (talking in the background)
ok im sorry about that
no problem
Do you remember any of the discussions the committee had about
desegregation?
Yes I do
Can you give us a discussion you shared about it?
Mr. EVANS: The type of discussion depended on where we were in our
deliberations. Early on the discussions revolved on what are the benefits of
desegregation and what are the disadvantages of it. And as we got further
into the – after several weeks we eventually got into the point where we
were talking about how can we best desegregate. So the discussions shifted
considerably in what was covered depending on how long the committee had
been meeting.
what was the actual plan of desegregation?
Mr. EVANS: The actual plan of desegregation said that we were going to
identify schools where there are openings and were going to move black
students on a bus to those schools where there were openings.
What did the people on the committee see as the benefits of desegregation?
MR. EVANS: Well probably some people on the committee never were entirely
convinced of the benefits of desegregation but kinda went along with it. But
the majority of the committee I think was convinced that desegregation would
result in better learning both for whites and for blacks. And that’s why we
were pushing for it. For example, I’m blocking on his name. There’s a school
in Champaign that just has been named after him.
[background voices]: Stratton?
Huh?
Stratton school?
Stratton? No.
oh its um…What’s the one that begins with a b?
everyone: Barkstall!
MR. EVANS: Mr. Barkstall was head of the Urban League and he said “the thing
that I’m after is to make sure that there’s better education at the end of
the bus ride.”
SHANIKA: People who were called Communists, some of them lost their jobs,
right?
Yes.
Were they able to find new jobs after that?
MR. EVANS: It was difficult. I knew a professor at a college that I attended
who was called a Communist and was fired and he never was able to get
another college teaching job.
SHANIKA: When you were called a Communist do you remember any of your
emotions? Were you angry, sad?
MR. EVANS: I was angry and fearful?
SHANIKA: I mean did you feel like doing something physical when you were
called that or did you just hold it in?
MR. EVANS: No I just held it in – I think I got an ulcer as a result of it
but – yeah I held it in.
SHANIKA: Were there any physical actions in the means the committee had
since there were different opinions on desegregation?
MR. EVANS: Nothing physical if you mean threatening another person but there
were people who would get so angry that they would jump up out of their
chairs and walk around the room until they’d cool down a little bit.
SHANIKA: Did any of the African – did any of the few African Americans you
met <inaudible> have anything against you because of the desegregation or
segregation?
MR. EVANS: Not that I’m aware of
TAMIKA: ok what do you think the real meaning of an Uncle Tom is?
MR. EVANS: Well I regard it as a – as a way of criticizing a black person
who is thought by other blacks to be too white
TAMIKA: Do you think that African Americans today need to know about the
problems of segregation and desegregation?
MR. EVANS: Oh indeed I do and whites today need to know about it also
TAMIKA: Do you think its because of the way their actions are and the
problems we have today?
MR. EVANS: Yes. It is so easy just to keep on doing what you’ve been doing.
And it’s difficult to change. So in order to get change you have to convince
people that change is desirable and the only way you can do that is through
education. And that means learning about how this process happened and what
can be done about it.
TAMIKA: Ok do you think that since this program is helping young African
Americans, do you think it should be a part of the school to help African
Americans and Caucasians learn about it?
MR. EVANS: Oh indeed I do. I was so pleased when I heard you were engaged in
this project.
ok you can ask him your last question. Thank you.
Thank you.
SHANIKA: How did it feel to be interviewed?
MR. EVANS: Oh I enjoyed being interviewed. How did you feel about
interviewing?
TAMIKA : Well uh, um…its really fun and sometimes its kind of awkward but I
really had fun interviewing you and I really learned some things about what
was going on back in the day.
MR. EVANS: Good. Well its wonderful practice for you and it’ll be good for
you
TAMIKA : Do you have any questions for us concerning the project or
anything?
MR. EVANS: I don’t think so. I’m just very happy with you.
Everyone: thank you.
Dave Dickey, radio reporter, asks additional questions of Mr. Evans.
00:03 since when were you guys best friends?
I beg your pardon?
How long were you best friends?
well in 1950 we moved right next door to this lady and she was married and
she and my first wife became close friends
its alright you don’t have to answer any questions you don’t want to
thank you
DAVE DICKEY: Mr. Evans? Were there any African Americans on the committee?
MR. EVANS: Oh yes
DAVE: Did they have the same attitudes as the whites did toward
desegregation or did they want to fight it because they liked their
neighborhoods or…?
MR. EVANS: So there were none on the committee who – no blacks on the
committee who wanted to stay in their neighborhood but they reported that
they were continually approached by other blacks – raising questions about
is this really a good idea. And I started to tell about and got side tracked
– I guess I did tell you that Mr. Palmer was criticized very much for not
living in the ghetto – choosing not to live in the ghetto – and he wasn’t
the only one. Probably the most affected black on the committee was Mr.
Barkstall – he was head of the Urban League at that time…very strong.
DAVE: Was it his personality, perseverance, what characteristics about him
that was –
MR. EVANS: Well he was very very knowledgeable. He’d been a student of this
– more than probably anyone else on the committee so he brought knowledge to
bear on it…what are the advantages and what are the disadvantages and what
are the methods that work and the ones that don’t work so he was an enormous
resource to the committee.
DAVE: In the early talks would it be fair to say that there was a lot of
friction that you had to deal with?
MR. EVANS: oh yeah there was quite a bit of friction in the early part of
our meetings
MR. EVANS: How’d you get over that? What turned it?
MR. EVANS: Well, part of it was that it was – we were all thrown together,
we’d all been asked to serve but we didn’t ask each other to serve so it was
kind of an amorphous group and it began to gel after we began to go through
and get better knowledge about the subject. Really there was very little
known, very little thought about in those days in both the white and the
black communities I think.
DAVE: Was there ever a suggestion that whites be the primary race that would
be bused I mean did blacks ever make that suggestion for example?
MR. EVANS: No they did not. They objected to blacks being the primary target
and said “lets share the burden more equitably.”
DAVE: Was there a fear that if black segregated schools were closed and
blacks were integrated into white schools that there would be a loss of
black role models in terms of fewer teachers, fewer leaders for them to
emulate – to learn from
MR. EVANS: Yes that was the big argument about why are you turning your back
on us and moving out of the ghetto
DAVE: How was that overcome I mean how was that eventually – that argument
put aside for the greater good.
MR. EVANS: I think it was put aside by the experience of what happened when
the residential patterns began to be destroyed. Most of the blacks continued
to go back to the ghetto for church for example so they weren’t entirely
divorced from the neighborhood and so I think – but I really think there’s
still some of that in existence.
DAVE: Talk to me about the difficulties in finding Mr. Palmer a house
MR. EVANS: Well first, Mr. And Mrs. Palmer went to a real estate agent and
were told that there was just no housing available outside of the north end.
And then I went with them to another realtor and was told the same thing.
And then just to check on it I went to another realtor and talked about
where could I buy a house and where could I rent and oh there were lots of
places. So it was obvious that this was just a – a ploy to get rid of the
Palmers. And we tried – I mentioned the try with the friend who was moving
to the west coast. Several other members of the school board kept an eye out
for houses that were available but eventually Eddie found a place in Urbana
and how he did it I have never known. But he found a place where they were
willing to sell to him just cattycorner across from Yankee Ridge school.
Nice house and they lived there until they retired. No I take it back they
moved – they moved to Champaign to a very nice neighborhood and got a much
better house but that was after the residential discrimination began to
disappear. Of course it hasn’t entirely disappeared to this day.
DAVE: Why do you think you have such an affinity for tackling this tough
issue given the fact that growing up you really hadn’t been around blacks
all that much
MR. EVANS: no I hadn’t
DAVE: Why do you think you had such a wish, a strength, a character, a wish
to do – to be a part of that desegregation effort even given the fact that
you really hadn’t been around blacks that much
MR. EVANS: Well I think it was in part the uh, the feelings of my mother and
father. They – well particularly my mother. She was very much in favor of
equality of all types and so I give her most of the credit or blame as the
case may be in shaping my attitudes towards this.
DAVE: Did she display it? Was she an activist? I mean how so, how did you
learn from her?
MR. EVANS: She was a great organizer and we moved a great deal because my
father didn’t have good jobs and so we were always looking for a better job,
better income. And when we would move to a new community she would organize
something like the mother singers. She was the director and the piano player
and she welcomed people from all walks of life and she would always organize
a rhythm band because that way she could – she’d charge 25 cents a week for
people to belong to the rhythm band. And she would sell them the rhythm
instruments but everyone was welcome to join. It was a – she was an equal
opportunity person if you ever saw one.
DAVE: Way before her time in terms of being equal to people. You say you
moved a lot huh?
MR. EVANS: Oh yes
DAVE: I did notice when I was listening earlier that you went to a whole lot
of different schools
MR. EVANS: oh yeah. But more than that we’d move from one house to another.
If the rent was 20 dollars a month and we could find a place that was 18
dollars a month why, we would move. And so I was always shifting schools
even when I wasn’t leaving the same community.
DAVE: Was it in college that you were first exposed to blacks on a personal
friendship level -
-on a personal friendship basis yes.
who were some of those people?
MR. EVANS: Mostly my students. I had several very good black students and I
was extremely pleased to follow their career. Both uh…the two that
immediately spring to mind are both dead unfortunately.
DAVE: After the plan was announced – formally announced, what was the
reaction in the community? The desegregation plan – what was the reaction in
the community?
MR. EVANS: Oh there were letters to the editor, mostly complaining about the
expense. There was no real organized opposition to the plan that I know of.
I had on a few occasions people say well I hope you’re proud of what you did
and were kind of sneering away but it went amazingly smoothly. Looking back
on it it’s a wonder we didn’t have organized demonstrations of blacks
pointing out how they were the ones who were bearing all the burden of it
but there weren’t.
DAVE: What year was that? Do you remember?
MR. EVANS: No, I don’t. it would have been in the late 60s or – it was about
the time that the university was having so many problems with integrating
the university
DAVE; That’s why I was bringing up the time because there was all kinds of
major protests – the national guard had to come
MR. EVANS: oh yeah. I got held hostage. I was – they had a meeting of the
deans and about 50 kids all wearing red berets marched in and announced that
we were being held hostage. They didn’t have the faintest idea what they
wanted but they held us hostage for 4 or 5 hours and then said “well, were
going home.” <laughs> it was an amazing period. The thing that really broke
the back of it though was when some of the demonstrators burned library
cards. You wouldn’t believe the wave of opposition that sprang up both from
faculty and students against that act. More than the guy who got killed up
in Wisconsin with a bomb.
DAVE: So if you had it to do all over again would you do it the same way? Do
it different?
MR. EVANS: Well I would continue to try to move for better socioeconomic
desegregation along with the racial but – and I would – I think I would try
harder to make the transfer more – I think equal transfer than it was then.
But the best solution to the thing I think is housing desegregation. We made
some horrible errors in this country in concentrating low income blacks both
in these high rises. That was just an absolute disaster and if we’d have
something like the title 8 rent subsidies early on I think we would have
saved ourselves a lot of grief.
DAVE: So how many – just facts for me – how many schools were closed? Was it
four schools that were closed? Does your memory help you there? Washington,
Marquette, brooker….booker t…booker?
No
What was closed
Colonial wolf was closed
ok
and the one that I cant remember the name of -
-up on Washington street?
washington and uh – it was on – I said state it was on Randolph-
-Randolph and
near Washington
I think those were all
did some teachers have to be let go?
No.
DAVE: Everybody got reassigned?
MR. EVANS: Yep. Now fortunately the number of students was going up like a
sky rocket in those days. The university was expanding and so we were
building new schools and we built most of them in southwest Champaign.
I guess one of the things some people would say –
oh we closed uh – savoy
ah, ok. would you – if you had it to do over would you build a couple of
those new schools in the – up in the north end?
MR. EVANS: I don’t know. The building of the schools would have to follow
the desegregation plan rather than the other way around. If we had had equal
swaps well then yeah you would have had to have built schools in the north
end. But once you decide you’re going to have most of the movement as blacks
then the only place to build them is southwest Champaign. Oh another one –
another school that was closed in that same period was Hensley out in the
country and uh…I’m blocking on it there’s still another one…oh on uh, north
prospect its now Judah…
oh where Judah Christian is?
Yeah
DAVE: Ok thank you. Do you think there was actual collusion among the real
estate agents – that they got together or do you just think there was a
prevalent attitude that everybody commonly shared?
MR. EVANS: No I think it was more than a prevalent attitude. I really
believe that if one of the real estate agents had stepped out of line there
would have been severe economic penalties aimed at that person. You know I
am still outraged at that friend of mine it just – every time I think about
it it just…he was one of these guys who preached about how liberal he was
but I was just aghast when he said he wouldn’t sell it to Eddie…
DAVE: I guess there’s some truth in putting your money where your mouth is
huh?
Yeah
well you uh, certainly lived in an interesting time.
oh yes. And I still am living in an interesting time. I just had lots of fun
as head of the Urbana Free Library Foundation – getting that thing built and
I was on the phone to the mayor today to get another little glitch ironed
out but everything’s going swimmingly now.
END
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