Interview Transcript

Jackie Smith attended Central and Centennial High Schools.

Introduction

This interview was with Jackie Smith. Ms. Smith is Community Relations Specialist for the City of Champaign. She was bused to Centennial High School when Champaign’s public schools were desegregated in 1968.

Brooke Harris, a 7th grader at Franklin Middle School, conducted the interview. Yakera Barbee, an 8th grader at Franklin Middle School, was the sound engineer. Brooke and Yakera are two of 13 Franklin Middle School students working with WILL-AM 580 on an oral history project documenting the actual desegregation of Champaign’s public elementary schools in 1968. The students used parts of this interview for their 60-minute radio documentary, More Than a Bus Ride: Desegregating Champaign Public Schools.

Brooke conducted the interview on January 18, 2005, at the WILL-AM 580 studio,
300 N. Goodwin Ave. in Urbana.

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BROOKE: I’m going to start the interview with some basic background questions to warm up for the rest of the interview. Ok first question. What is your full name?

MS. SMITH: My full name is Jaqueline Lucille Smith.

BROOKE: What do you do for a living?

MS. SMITH: I am an investigator. My title is Community Relations Specialist for the City of Champaign and what I do is investigate cases of discrimination that have happened within the city of Champaign.

BROOKE: How many cases have you done since you’ve been working there?

MS. SMITH: Well lets see over the six year period I’ve investigated probably…almost over 100 cases.

BROOKE: That’s a lot.

MS. SMITH: : Yes it is.

BROOKE: How long have you been doing it?

MS. SMITH: : For six years. Going on seven.

BROOKE: Can you explain…oh excuse me. Where were you born?

MS. SMITH: I was born at – it is now called Covenant…Provena Covenant but when i was born it was called Mercy Hospital in Urbana.

BROOKE: When were you born?

MS. SMITH: I was born October 6, 1955.

BROOKE: What is your race?

MS. SMITH: My race is African American female.

BROOKE: What part of town did you grow up in?

MS. SMITH: I grew up in a – they labeled it the north side – uh the north end but it’s the northwest or - I’m sorry the north side of town.

BROOKE: Was your neighborhood predominantly black or white?

MS. SMITH: It was predominantly black.

BROOKE: How did people relate to one another?

MS. SMITH: We related to each other in a very family oriented way. Everybody knew each other, we loved each other…nobody was a stranger who lived there to each other. We all raised each other’s kids and we knew each others parents.

BROOKE: So would you say there was no hatred?

MS. SMITH: : No hatred.

BROOKE: Where do you live now? In which town and what part?

MS. SMITH: Well I live in the south end of town now in a village called Savoy. Savoy, Illinois.

BROOKE: Which schools did you go to in grade school, junior high, high school and college?

MS. SMITH: Grade school was Booker T. Washington School, middle school was Franklin Middle School <BROOKE: That’s my school…> and – good school! – I went to both high schools. One was Centennial High School and Central High School. I graduated from Central High School.

BROOKE: And what college did you go to?

MS. SMITH: Parkland College.

BROOKE: Do you have brothers and sisters and did they go to the same schools as you?

MS. SMITH: Yes, I do have one brother and one sister and - you know what? I need to back up because my grade school was split. We started out in a Catholic school and then our mother – oops…is it ok? Can I still talk? Ok. We started out in a Catholic school and my mother sent us to…I think when we got into the 9th grade is when we went on to Franklin Middle School. Oh and I have a sister and a brother and we all started out in the Catholic school, then we switched to the parochial schools.

BROOKE: Which of your schools were segregated and which were integrated?

MS. SMITH: The segregated ones were the Catholic schools that I went to – St. Mary’s. And then the integrated ones of course were Franklin and Central and Centennial.

BROOKE: Why would you say that the Catholic schools were segregated?

MS. SMITH: Well because it was predominantly white people and the only blacks that were there were myself – our family I’m sorry – and three other families. So that was it. There was no – those were the only three families out of…I think it was about a class of 300.

BROOKE: Were these three families – excuse me – did these three families live in your neighborhood?

MS. SMITH: No they did not but they did live on the north end.

BROOKE: Ok. I understand that you were bussed to Centennial. What was that like?

MS. SMITH: Ok. You know what? It was an educational experience. And I have to start with my education in the Catholic school. In the Catholic school was my first experience of racism. My brother who was in the first grade, I was in the fourth grade and my sister was in the fifth grade. He was spat on and called nigger and we couldn’t relate to the hatred then because our mother did not raise us to hate people. She raised us to love everybody. And we didn’t know what the whole connection of racism was. So when he called my brother that and spit on him, then the parents got involved and then the apologies came and so forth - we kind of felt like “What did we do wrong?” And so from that point on was our whole experience of knowing what racial comments and racial connotations and restaurants and so forth was. So when we did finally get among people who were like us we started feeling more comfortable, but racism was still more alive in the high schools. But that was our first introduction to racism was in the Catholic school with predominantly white children.

BROOKE: Where you and your sister ever treated like your brother was?

MS. SMITH: Yes we were. When we would go on – see we were considered from the north but when wed go our vacations to the south where our parents were from, we would go to the movies with our friends and our cousins and I can remember a gentleman coming and grabbing me and telling me that that was not our water fountain. We – they had a water fountain for whites and a water fountain for blacks – well coloreds as they called them then and we weren’t allowed to drink at the white fountains. And of course I didn’t know what that was all about but my cousin Gloria explained to me that you know – and we didn’t get to sit in the theatre part. We had to sit up in the balcony.

BROOKE: How did you feel about that?

MS. SMITH: Well I felt first of all, that there was a negative attached to being black. But thanks to my parents who taught me that there was all positive about being black I was taught always the positive things about being black so that when I experienced the negative it really made me feel bad. It made me feel like something was wrong.

BROOKE: How were you treated the first day you got off the bus at Centennial?

MS. SMITH: Well I tell you what. The first day was ok, and the second day and so forth. But after being there for a while and racial tensions started building, I think the straw that broke the camels back was when one of the African American boys had gone with a white girl. And that ensued an argument and a fight and hatred. And the next thing we knew, the next day we were going to get off the bus – our bus was coming around the corner and we were pulling in front of the school – we saw all of these grown men with hard hats on and we were confused…we were like “What is that about?” You know they were fathers, they were construction workers, they were – they weren’t just kids but there were students mixed with them and of course the only boys on – the only thing our boys had on the bus were their belts or anything to help defend themselves. So when we got off the bus we were met with hatred, we were met with bats, we were met with so forth so we just – girls just took off running and the boys had to fight themselves – fight for themselves and it was all over a biracial relationship that started.

BROOKE: Was your brother-

MS. SMITH: No my brother was little so at that particular time he was still in grade school. But we were in high school me and my sister…and some of our friends were beaten and some of them were locked out, I think. And a handicapped boy – his wheelchair was set on fire. I mean these are drastic things that you would probably not even think about but we had to experience that and we had to try to go to school during a period where it was so difficult you know to – and they were trying to segregate a school so it was very difficult.

BROOKE: Did you know why you were bussed?

MS. SMITH: No, at that particular time we didn’t but I would hear my mother and my aunts and people in the neighborhood – they were upset because the black children were bussed to the white areas but the white children were not bussed to the black areas – to the black schools in our neighborhoods. So we felt that there was disparate treatment – that means that we were being treated differently than the white children by – we had to go to their areas of town to attend school. Well our parents who also worked demanding jobs couldn’t get off to come and pick us up after school so we couldn’t stay for after school programs. So bussing and all is not – it has its good things when you want to integrate both races and not just take us out of our environment and put us into the white environment of children and they can walk home and their parents can come and get them but ours could not. We were like six or seven miles away from home.

BROOKE: So all the black kids had to go straight home after school?

MS. SMITH: Yeah we had to get the bus and go home. A lot of parents were poor and they didn’t have a second car or they didn’t have – both parents were working and the mother couldn’t come and you know pick up the child or we couldn’t stay after to get tutoring or so forth because we had to take that bus to get home. And even then the bus didn’t take you in front of your house and drop you off. We got dropped off maybe two blocks away and you still had to walk home.

BROOKE: Was it a long walk or a short walk?

MS. SMITH: It was – to me it was a long walk – especially in weather like it is now. But it was fun because we had each other, we had our friends so…it didn’t matter.

BROOKE: Were the blacks the only ones who were bussed or were the whites bussed as well?

MS. SMITH: No the black children were the only ones bussed.

BROOKE: Did that make you feel different from the white children?

MS. SMITH: Well and you know what? I have to be honest – it was such an inconvenience but it didn’t make me feel bad – what it made me do, because of the way that I was raised, my mother taught me to accept every situation that was dealt to you – whether it was bad or good - to deal with it as a challenge. Which meant she was also challenged because I was a cheerleader and I was in Student Council – I was president of the Student Council – and it was just my nature to be active in school so therefore I just participated in things that – we didn’t even have money to buy me sweaters for the cheerleading and stuff but my mother and father would work extra because they knew that they had taught me not to let racism be a barrier. And so you know, that’s the price I paid and it’s a good one because it paid off years later.

BROOKE: Do you regret anything that you did while you were in school?

MS. SMITH: Lets see do I regret? Not a thing.

BROOKE: How difficult was it to participate in after school activities because of bussing?

MS. SMITH: Ok. That was very difficult. It was difficult like I said because my mother who worked and my father who worked had to arrange to get off because my father worked two jobs and my mother had to feed us and get – you know it was just very difficult.

BROOKE: Ok. You say you were at Centennial when there were race riots? What were those like?

MS. SMITH: Well I tell you what – it was none like I’ve ever seen before and if – the only other thing I would equal it to would be the race riots that Dr. King experienced. And the reason why I say that is because the day that I told you that we got off the bus and black children had to fight their way…usually you think of children going to school to learn and get an education. We had to fight. We had to fight against racism and once we got into the halls the whole school was in disarray. It was just such chaos and they had locked the doors. The teachers who were in the classroom with the white children and some black children had locked the doors to keep people out. They were trying to be safe. So on my way to my classroom one of the teachers was into a fight and he got his glasses knocked off of his eyes and I picked up his glasses and he was hurt. And I got expelled from school – not expelled sorry – kicked out from – out of school for being outside when they had closed the doors. And I couldn’t understand how you know – I was just trying to help somebody and I got suspended. Of course my mother went to school and we fought and we fought and I got back in but it was embarrassing because I was a cheerleader, and I had to sit out a game, and you know – it was just such penalties to being black at that particular time and being bussed that it just carried such negativism to it that it was just – it was a hurtful experience.

BROOKE: Do you think that if a white child would have picked up the man’s glasses would he or she gotten kicked out of school?

MS. SMITH: No, I really don’t. And I really mean that because I think they would have been looked at as being really helpful and at that particular day it was so much chaos going on that anybody black was penalized for either being in the hall or being – and I think it was called a process that they were using of trying to get everything under control. But there were a lot of black children fighting – there were, because they were fighting out of fear - but I wasn’t one of them but I got penalized.

BROOKE: Ok. How did you feel when you were expelled for picking up your teacher’s glasses?

MS. SMITH: Like I said I felt like I had been betrayed by a system that I thought was fair. You know – I felt like I had - a verdict had been set down on me without thoroughly investigating the situation – and the teachers knew me…and I think they were hurt after they got to hear my side of it, they were hurt that this had to happen to me. You know because they always used me a lot too to help in situations where children – you know I think today they call them peer groups? They used me a lot to do that and then when I was trying to do a good gesture and then got penalized for it a lot of the teachers – the white teachers - were sad that it happened and went to my aide.

BROOKE: From that day on did you keep helping others?

MS. SMITH: Sure. I sure did and the reason why I did is because, because of what racism had done to me, I was determined not to let it do it to anybody else. And I believe even on my job now that the best way to get somebody to know and learn about racism and how to delete it is to educate them and so I’ve spent the rest of my life doing that.

BROOKE: How did you feel about getting locked out of your classroom?

MS. SMITH: Getting locked out I felt like – like I said I felt like I was being penalized. Like they thought that I was the criminal – I felt like a criminal to sum it up, I really did. I felt like a criminal and that there was no safety for me outside of the classroom so…that’s how I felt.

BROOKE: That same day that you were locked out of your classroom did the teachers ever unlock the doors or did they keep them locked until the next day?

MS. SMITH: No. They kept them locked – as a matter of fact because at the same time I was being locked out a boy who was disabled was on the elevator and they had set him on fire. So there had been – of course the police and the fire department was coming so by that time the stress level was so high that they weren’t about to let anybody in the classroom. So I had to go – for safety – I had to go to the principal’s office and call my mom and dad and then they came.

BROOKE: Was your principal white or black?

MS. SMITH: He was white.

BROOKE: And he let you use the phone?

MS. SMITH: No he was – no as a matter of fact he was in his office behind the desk locked out. So – because a lot of people were angry with him. So he was locked – he had secured himself behind his desk as well so I just used - one of the secretaries in the office was a black secretary and she let me use the phone.

BROOKE: How did your experiences with desegregation affect your life then and today?

MS. SMITH: Well then I couldn’t see it but it was actually – it affected it in a way that would educate me and prepare me for what is going on today. So it was a process of preparation is what it was. I had always heard about Dr. King and I know you guys hear about it a lot too where you see a picture of Dr. King and J.F.Kennedy and on your wall in the family – and that’s the way it was in my family. I had heard a lot about him and the civil rights movement but to actually be a part of it in my own little town – it really meant a lot to me. It prepared me for today.

BROOKE: Was it hard to get on the cheerleading team being a black girl?

MS. SMITH: Yes it was. It was very hard but it was hard only because I think then that the white people thought it would be very appropriate to at least put one on. Several of em had tried out and several of them were good. But they only picked one. And I prayed a lot – a lot of me was spiritually based so I prayed a lot and gave it my all but I would like to think that I was not a token even though I do think that was part of it – and they say token or quota or whatever. I would like to think that it was my determination and my good skills and of course you know I was much smaller then and I could do flip flops and you know the whole works. But I did that, I prided myself on being the best I could be.

BROOKE: So you were the only black girl on your team?

MS. SMITH: I was the only black one for two years and then another black girl joined me and it was my cousin so…we were the only two black cheerleaders that I can remember for a long time.

BROOKE: So I understand that you were on the Student Council?

MS. SMITH: : Yes.

BROOKE: How were you treated?

MS. SMITH: On the Student Council it was – it was difficult at first until they saw that my ideas were just like theirs and my ideas had meaning…I wasn’t just talking a lot of jibber jabber. And they knew that I was genuine and that I was popular among both races so white people and black people alike liked me so it was good.

BROOKE: Was Central High better? If so can you please tell me why?

MS. SMITH: Yes. Central High School was better, I felt, because it was closer to home, I liked their curriculum, they had a lot more for – they had what was called – they called it the Afro-American club.

BROOKE: Yeah they still have that.

MS. SMITH: They still have that and we didn’t have that so much at Centennial but we had the Afro-American Club where we could identify. Its very important for not just African Americans but for Latinos and Asians and the like to identify with themselves as well as integrate with others. But it taught us a lot on how to treat each other – black people to treat each other. So the Afro-American Club was there at Central and I just loved it. And it was within walking distance too.

BROOKE: So if you could today go back to Central would you help out with the Afro-American Club there?

MS. SMITH: I certainly would. I certainly would.

BROOKE: Did central have race riots when you were at the school?

MS. SMITH: No it didn’t. Central has had its share of trouble and more recently than when I was in school. They didn’t have it when I was in – if they did I didn’t know about it but I didn’t feel that. Central also had a great number of African American teachers. That helps too and I don’t think we had that many at Centennial.

BROOKE: Were any of the people that you are working with today involved in desegregation back then?

MS. SMITH: That I’m working with today? No. At my current job? No.

BROOKE: So you’re the only one?

MS. SMITH: Yeah cause a lot of the people on my job have come to the town either through the University of Illinois so they’re passing through or they come to get an education or they’re from the outskirts like Farmer City and Danville and so forth so they come in to work and then they go back out.

BROOKE: Did they believe in desegregation?

MS. SMITH: Well you know I think a lot of times they did believe in it but its just – when you come from a small town you don’t have it to begin with so when you come to a big city you’re not going to understand what desegregation is all about.

BROOKE: How involved were your parents with your education in school?

MS. SMITH: Oh very involved. My parents were president of the PTA and they were just very involved. They came to functions, they monitored – they came to all of my games so they were very involved.

BROOKE: Were your brothers and sisters involved?

MS. SMITH: Yes, yes. My sister was not quite as outgoing as I was but she still supported me. She came to my games and stuff and my brother – he was just too little to care.

BROOKE: Do you believe in desegregation and why do some people want others to not.

MS. SMITH: Well I whole-heartedly believe that we should get along with other cultures, integrate...that we should learn to educate ourselves because ultimately society is built on things that include other races and in order for us to know about it we do have to integrate. And I believe in it.

BROOKE: Who did you hang out with through all of your grade schools and did you have friends of both races?

MS. SMITH: Yes I did. As a matter of fact I had – during the time of the race riots one of my best friends was – and I hate this whole cliché: “One of my best friends was black” or whatever, but one of my best friends was white. Michelle Russo. She was a very, very good dear friend of mine. Her dad was a doctor and I had friends of all races.

BROOKE: How do you feel about segregation?

MS. SMITH: Well I treat that like a disease. Segregation is something that we need to find a cure for because its harmful. Its harmful. So I’m hoping for someday they can find a cure for it.

BROOKE: Do you think that if you were the only one who knew about this would you try to find a cure for it yourself?

MS. SMITH: For segregation? Oh you betchya. And you know what? Guess what my cure for it is. I believe that everyone should spend a reasonable amount of time within somebody else’s culture. That is the only way we’re going to know really how it is to be that person and walk in their shoes. In other words, as an African American you need to step outside of your shoes and become – and live with a Latino person or a white person. And vice versa – they also need to exchange. To me that’s the best diversity training. And to educate people so that they get influenced to make the change in their life.

BROOKE: Have you ever did that?

MS. SMITH: Yes I did. Yes I did. And it is so neat. It is so fun you know, to see the different cultures and how they interact or how they don’t interact and why they don’t interact. A lot of people find it offensive to do some of the things that we do because its just not in their culture. But one of the things that I really love to do is to see other cultures dance. That just cracks me up and I think if a white person spent some time in my culture they’d learn what rhythm was. And if I spent some time in their culture I’d know what a different style of eating is. You know, that type of exchange. I think what we laugh about normally in our living rooms - you know they don’t have no rhythm, the don’t - well they truly don’t! And I think if they spent time with us or if we spent time with them we could understand and learn what that’s about. I think its fun and I think its educational at the same time.

BROOKE: If the schools were segregated did the blacks have the same textbooks as whites.

MS. SMITH: I’m sorry can you repeat that?

BROOKE: If the schools were segregated did the blacks have the same textbooks as whites?

MS. SMITH: No. If they were or when the schools were segregated?

BROOKE: If the schools were segregated.

MS. SMITH: If they were segregated I believe that they – that the whites would have a different textbook than the blacks.

BROOKE: Were your textbooks in good shape or were they torn?

MS. SMITH: They were – they were relatively in good shape. They were but they just didn’t include my history.

BROOKE: So would you say that your textbooks were the same as the whites textbooks?

MS. SMITH: Ok you’re talking about the condition of them.

BROOKE: Yeah.

MS. SMITH: Yeah. And as a matter of fact I really didn’t pay any attention to it. They were heavy. They were heavy and the condition I don’t think would have mattered that much to me had it obtained something that interested me in terms of African American history, which it didn’t.

BROOKE: How did your teachers treat you?

MS. SMITH: My teachers liked me because I didn’t care if they didn’t like black people. The way that I was would have either made them respect me or like me. They didn’t have to like me but they would have known that they had to respect me – because that’s just the kind of personality that I had, you know.

BROOKE: Did the schools put in particular classes vs. people of a different race in other classes?

MS. SMITH: Uh, lemmie see…you wanna repeat that?

BROOKE: Did the schools put in particular classes vs. people of a different race in other classes?

MS. SMITH: : Wanna give me an example of what you’re asking?

BROOKE: Ok lets see…my brain’s going dead. Um, like if the whites had like a social studies class and a math class, did the whites have the same classes as they did or did they have separate classes?

MS. SMITH: Yeah no, they didn’t have separate classes because part of integration part of us being bussed over there wasn’t just to be bussed; they also had to integrate the classes.

BROOKE: So the whites and blacks had the same classes?

MS. SMITH: Yes.

BROOKE: Did you feel discriminated against?

MS. SMITH: In life or just in school?

BROOKE: Both.

MS. SMITH: Yes. As a matter of fact – and I can tell you a particular time where I was discriminated against and had I known before I worked where I work now that it was actual discrimination I would have pursued having it investigated. But I worked for a company for 15 years and I worked my way up in the company to the point that I wanted to apply for this particular job. But they told me that they wanted me – they wanted to see if I could do it. So in order – before they would give me the pay for it they wanted me to work six months to see if I would you know, do the job well and if I knew how to do it and so forth. Well, when I did get the job they took the longest to give me the pay for it because I did perform it. And I thought that was fair that I had to perform the job for six months until I got the actual pay for it. They gave me the base pay but they didn’t give me the pay that they would have any other white person for it. And how I know that is because when I went for the next job, then the white girl who came behind me applied for the job – she was blonde, she was pretty she was petite…she did not have as much experience as I did and she didn’t have experience in the position that she was coming in. It was who she knew is how she got the job. So they hired her and they gave her the pay and she did not have to work the six months like I did. They just gave her the pay and gave her the job…and that is discrimination.

BROOKE: So they made you work harder and she didn’t-

MS. SMITH: They made – they held me to a different standard than they did her and that’s exactly what happened.

BROOKE: So you was just applying for the same job you just had to work harder for it and she didn’t.

MS. SMITH: I had to work harder for it and she didn’t. And she was not qualified for it. She did not have the skills.

BROOKE: So she just got the job cause she was white-

MS. SMITH: She just got the job – yes. And because there were – and actually had she known what I knew, she probably would have filed a sexual harassment lawsuit as well because she got the job and there were comments made about how pretty she was and what they thought she would do and so forth.

BROOKE: Did you have any racial conflicts in school?

MS. SMITH: Yes – in school? <Yeah.> Yes I did. It was in the gym class, in one of my PE classes and the – it was a swim class. And the swim teacher had made a comment to me and several other black girls about swimming. It was a racial slur that was made about black people and how you all can’t swim and how you all – you know, just classing us all together without knowing individually - there were some people in there who could swim. You know black people can’t swim or black people can’t do that and that’s why she didn’t have us go out for a particular section of the swim team and I was like “She didn’t even try us out.” You know she just assumed that black people don’t swim.

BROOKE: So did you and your friends know how to swim?

MS. SMITH: Three of us did. Three of us did but the other didn’t and there was like seven or eight of us on the team and the others didn’t. And they were afraid and she – I don’t know if she was disappointed or whatever but the wording that she used was “Black people don’t,” oh that’s right – “You people don’t know how to swim,” or “You all don’t…” you know and I was like that’s a judgment upon all black people and not individually.

BROOKE: So at another point did she let you and your friends try out for the swim team?

MS. SMITH: No and we didn’t pursue it because we didn’t know how. We didn’t know how.

BROOKE: What percentage of kids at your school were black and what percentage was white?

MS. SMITH: Well, you know it’s difficult to say because at that particular time I didn’t know percentages. All I could say is - I would have to say that of the whole school maybe 3% were African Americans or – yeah there were no other minorities as it is now – there were no other minorities so I’d say about 3% of the whole school.

BROOKE: So there were no Mexicans, Latinos, Italians?

MS. SMITH: No, no everything was just black and white.

BROOKE: How did kids of other races treat you and how did teachers treat you? Or did I already ask you that question?

MS. SMITH: I think you asked me about the teachers. Other races there were none other than white children and of course they stayed their distance – some did. Some didn’t. Some really liked me because I never let color be the barrier when I was making friends.

BROOKE: How did parents of children from other races treat you?

MS. SMITH: : Well it wasn’t how they treated me its how they treated my mother and I guess that’s where I got my wit from because my mother – she was very bodacious. She would volunteer to take over an event, she would volunteer just up front and center and they were so surprised and so awe struck that they would just let her do it and shed make friends while she did it. And they would make statements to her like “I can’t believe you did that cause so and so you know, that’s the first time we’ve ever even had a black parent to do this,” and yada-yada-yada but my mother was always determined to be the first to do something and I think that’s where I got that from.

BROOKE: Were your classrooms separated by race differences? Or did blacks and whites stay in the same classes together?

MS. SMITH: We stayed in the same classes.

BROOKE: So there were – were the handicaps in the same class as you?

MS. SMITH: Yes. Yes.

BROOKE: How did desegregation affect your neighborhood?

MS. SMITH: Well, actually the only time – you know what? The neighborhood - and my parents – well my father is still there in that neighborhood. I haven’t seen any white people move into that particular neighborhood. They are in the area and often times I hear black people make comments about them being there and I said to myself “Now that’s how we felt when we would go in a white neighborhood and they’d make comments about us.” You know it just – the tables were turned. I think there’s about maybe three or four families and its because of the section 8 program that they’re in the neighborhood but I have heard black people make comments about them and I’ve often disagreed because I said that’s what we felt when we went in their neighborhoods. Now, mind you when I was a little girl, the other side of the tracks over on the north end is where white people lived so you know it wasn’t a problem then because they lived there but during the time of the riots they moved out. The white people moved on into the other subdivisions.

BROOKE: So they no longer stayed in where they were?

MS. SMITH: No.

BROOKE: What role did church play in your life?

MS. SMITH: Church played 95% of the structuring of my life. Most – and it does for most – not all – African Americans but for most that I’ve associated with. The church plays a very very big part you know, I just include it in on everything that I do because I’m a spiritual person and it’s a lot of what kept me focused – my spirituality.

BROOKE: If you don’t mind me asking are you a Christian?

MS. SMITH: Yes I am. I certainly am. Can I ask you, are you? Ok!

BROOKE: Are there other people we should talk to about their experiences?

MS. SMITH: Yes…I would say other races. I think that it would be interesting for you to know what similarities other races face when they come here. For instance, Latinos. When they come here they also experience segregation and discrimination as we do. And I find it quite interesting how other races treat each other knowing how it feels to be looked down upon. Sometimes we’re guilty of discriminating if that’s the way to put it against each other’s race who are not white – nonwhites. So if I were you I would talk to people of the Latino culture…and the Asian culture.

BROOKE: Ok. How did you feel about this interview?

MS. SMITH: I loved it. It gave me an opportunity first of all to go back and reminisce about some of the things that didn’t feel so good to me. But I’m so grateful to have the opportunity to tell someone of a younger generation so that you can have something to look forward to and not be afraid of segregation or being discriminated against and knowing how to handle it.

BROOKE: Did you ever feel that any questions that I asked you was too hard?

MS. SMITH: No.

BROOKE: Ok. Thank you for giving me your time and I’m going to turn it over to Yakera to see if she has any questions.

YAKERA: I don’t have any questions.

KIMBERLIE ( project co-director): Just a couple questions, thanks. One of the things the students learned from last year – you had talked about segregation when you went to the south…your parents were from the south in (theatres and the fountains?) and all of that….when you were growing up in Champaign um did that also occur here? Was there defacto segregation – not in your time…

MS. SMITH: No, there was not. So of course when I went to Texas it was strange and I didn’t know what it was all about. Also, I need to mention that on the way down to Texas we never stopped – the one stop that we made was in Cairo?, Illinois, and it wasn’t until I got older – I wish I had mentioned this too – it wasn’t until I got older that I knew what the shoebox chicken was all about. When mama used to make shoeboxes and put the chicken in there we couldn’t stop in restaurants and I never knew why. We thought it was a treat and we still think it is a treat.

KIMBERLIE: I understand what you’re saying.

MS. SMITH: : Yes…

KIMBERLIE: Yakera how is her microphone?

YAKERA: Yeah, its recording but…yeah.

MS. SMITH: : Ok.

KIMBERLIE: Ok. So, could you tell the chicken shoebox story one more time?

MS. SMITH: Ok. Yes, I also wanted to mention about um, when we would travel to the south that – when we were little we never knew that we couldn’t stop at restaurants so mama would always make what we call the shoebox chicken where it was just bread and chicken and pound cake and goodies. So it was always a good thing for us but it wasn’t until we grew up, later in years that we found out it was because we couldn’t stop. Black people couldn’t stop in restaurants and because I was so mouthy – um we stopped at one particular restaurant that was right before we got to Cairo and the water glass was dirty – and I made a comment. I said “Mama this glass is dirty!” and she would hush me up real quick and then we got in the car and then she would tell me things about why we couldn’t say certain things and why we couldn’t eat in certain restaurants. So the shoebox chicken traveled with me throughout all the years and I’m grateful for the shoebox chicken but that’s what happened.

KIMBERLIE: Ok. Um you had told a story to Brooke about when um, an African American male was dating a white woman and a few days later the white men and white students met you all and you had to flee and there was – how did the school handle this? What was the fall out?

MS. SMITH: Well what they did was – they had um, they had open dialogue. They met with certain groups. They called community leaders in and so forth. They didn’t necessarily address the interracial relationships though – that it was ok – they never addressed that because the parents were still fuming over the whole issue. So we really never got to the root of what was right or what was wrong, but we knew that the girls couldn’t date the black guys anymore and that the police – they upped security at the schools. And then we talked about it – we would talk about it in the classrooms and so forth but it was all because of the interracial dating.

KIMBERLIE: And did the newspaper cover this? Do you remember?

MS. SMITH: Yes they did.

KIMBERLIE: Do you have any idea of what it was…1968?

MS. SMITH: I think it was about…yeah I think it was 68/69.

KIMBERLIE: And um, you had mentioned a white friend – one of your best friends – Michelle Russo?

MS. SMITH: Yes, yes.

KIMBERLIE: And she was your friend during the riots.

MS. SMITH: Yes.

KIMBERLIE: Tell me how your relationship changed or stayed the same – can you give me some stories about that?

MS. SMITH: Well, our relationship really stayed the same. It got stronger and I think it had a lot to do with our parents. Because we were both cheerleaders, her mother and my mother would rely heavily on transporting us back and forth to games. And her dad was a doctor so her mother couldn’t come pick her up a lot and they had a large family. So they would rely on my dad and my mother to pick Michelle up and bring her home so when the parents made the ties, our ties – I could spend the night over there…I don’t think she really spent the night over to my house but I could spend the night over to hers and uh – but our relationship stayed the same.

KIMBERLIE: And did she – how did she react to the disparate treatment that you received compared to her?

MS. SMITH: You know what? A lot of times I would have to hush her up because she was just as bodacious as I was. She was like “I don’t care about this!” and “I don’t care about that!” and I’m like “Michelle, hush because they will certain turn on [you],” – and if a white person was friends with a black person then, white people would turn on that white person and Michelle had no reserves about having a black friend. She just didn’t – she was – we were innocently ignorant when it came to racism then. You know we were just testing the waters when we were growing up so…

KIMBERLIE: But yet you had this protective instinct toward her?

MS. SMITH: Yes. And I still do.

KIMBERLIE: You still know her today?

MS. SMITH: I didn’t know what happened to her and one day when I was on the train coming back from Chicago, she was on the train as well and it turns out she lives in a little town called Neoga and uh, so I know where she is - and she’s a librarian.

KIMBERLIE: That’s neat. Um, after you were – you had mentioned some of the white teachers came to your aid after you were suspended. What actually – what did they do?

MS. SMITH: Well what they did was they were very apologetic. They were like “Oh we didn’t know, oh I’m sorry,” and even the guy I got the glasses for never apologized to me, but the other teachers – basically what they would say is “Well now next time you need to hurry up and you need to be in this and you need to be…” In the middle of a riot where is there a right place to be? <laughs> You know? But a lot of em were very apologetic. Not that they could have done anything but the were – especially my cheerleading teacher.

KIMBERLIE: So they were sympathetic and talked to you afterwards but no one like – stuck their neck out to help…

MS. SMITH: My mother did and that was it…you know…my mother stuck her neck out for me. She always has and even as she looks down upon me I know she always will.

KIMBERLIE: Can you give me an example of how she did that?

MS. SMITH: : Well – of how she stuck her neck out?

KIMBERLIE: Mhm.

MS. SMITH: Well what she did was she went to – my mother would never just go to the next person because to her that wasn’t enough. My mother would have to go to the top of the top. She’d go straight past Longnecker. It was the - he was the superintendent then – I’m sorry the principal – Longnecker, Mr. Longnecker. She went past him and went to the school board. And she would meet with the board and would basically negotiate based on facts. And that’s how she did it. She always based things strictly on fact and upon the merit of the person, the character of the person and so forth. And she didn’t care if you were black or white. She always did that and like I said 98% - 95 of me is religion – 98% of her is…so with that and her religion she just knew she could win anything.

KIMBERLIE: What prompted you to transfer from Centennial to Central?

MS. SMITH: My mother did. She went to the school board about that as well. And that was because she believed in first of all, my education. She knew I think deep within herself that racism had no cure then. But my education was important and if I wasn’t going to get it in Centennial, she was going to take me to the next step(?). At that particular time Central had no riots. And she had talked to the superintendent and the principal and so forth and knowing the type of child that I was, she knew that Centennial could not be the place for me to finish…with its segregation.

KIMBERLIE: And how was it for you to leave one school where you were a cheerleader and on Student Council and go to another? How difficult or easy was that?

MS. SMITH: The only thing that was difficult about it was my friends. My best friend at that particular time and Michelle were at Centennial so…but then again my mother knew that it was a good thing because for me to be with best friends – I needed to be separated from the affliction of segregation but I also needed a fresh start which meant making new friends. And that wasn’t a problem for me – making new friends.

KIMBERLIE: So was Central then predominantly African American where Centennial-

MS. SMITH: It was more African American than Centennial.

KIMBERLIE: So the racial tension was then not an issue?

MS. SMITH: No.

KIMBERLIE: So you could study, focus on your-

MS. SMITH: No. I was able to study – I was– it also had a program where I could go to school and work half day, I could drive a car – by that time I was 16 and I could drive.

KIMBERLIE: Ok so how many years at Centennial was it?

MS. SMITH: Centennial it was two years.

KIMBERLIE: And then two at Central where you graduated from?

MS. SMITH: Mhm.

KIMBERLIE: And we heard from some people last year like Centennial had a pool and air conditioning and Central didn’t…

MS. SMITH: Yes they did central didn’t.

KIMBERLIE: So there were some differences in facilities?

MS. SMITH: Yes. <laughs> Yes.

KIMBERLIE: Ok. And one – I think one final question from me is you know you - one of the things I heard you say about desegregation is getting to know people of different races, different cultures and that’s the only way you can understand which of course – what about the justice peace? Is there a – in addition to getting to know people who are different from you, what about – what were in your mind the way you understand why Brown vs. board occurred and finally we did it here – you know what is the – what do you think is the reason for desegregation?

MS. SMITH: The reason I think for desegregation is because several people – hardworking people got together and decided to make a legislation. And in addition to educating yourself, forming legislation to combat racial injustice is more important because it takes it a step further. And I just wish locally we had more organizations or more ordinances that could penalize organizations and people for discriminating. Because quite frankly I think when you get in a person’s pocket or when you penalize them and they have to pay fines and so forth, then they tend to listen a lot better. And if that’s what it takes then we need more legislation to do that.

KIMBERLIE: And um, I did think of one more…how were you affected or were you affected spiritually or psychologically by the way desegregation was implemented in Champaign?

MS. SMITH: Both. Physically I was because I was involved in it. I didn’t just watch it happen. You know I had – I was involved in the bussing so I knew what it was. I was involved in Robesons when I was the first fashion model – they never had a black fashion model. In economy – you know I was involved in it. I was involved in marching to help with my mother to help combat an adult bookstore to not be across from a daycare – I was involved in it. So physically it impacted me to learn to march. I wish more children could march. I wish they could get involved in more things like that that helps desegregation. And mentally, spiritually I feel good about it because I know that that higher power which I call my God has made a way for me to be who I am today in spite of what has gone on in my life. It has made me stronger and it has made me love people regardless of who they are or how I feel about them.

KIMBERLIE: I had a question and then I lost it. Just let me think give me one second…<chatter>

KIMBERLIE: Yakera, what’s your question? You told me you’d do a follow up. Alright, ok. Alright I think that’s it then. The students are also creating their own website so we’ll want to put some photos up.

END