| Introduction
This interview was with Alvin Griggs. Mr. Griggs is a retired assistant
principal of Centennial High School in Champaign, IL.
Gabrielle Ceaser, a 7th grader at Franklin Middle School, conducted the
interview. Danielle Russell, an 8th grader at Franklin, engineered the
interview. Gabrielle and Danielle are two of 12 Franklin Middle School
students and two Central High School students (graduates of last year’s
radio program) working with WILL-AM 580 on an oral history project
documenting the actual desegregation of Champaign’s public elementary
schools in 1968. The students used parts of this interview for their
60-minute radio documentary, More Than a Bus Ride: Desegregating Champaign
Public Schools.
Gabrielle conducted the interview on March 3, 2005, at the WILL-AM 580
studio, 300 N. Goodwin Ave. in Urbana, IL.
GABRIELLE: Please state your full name.
MR. GRIGGS: Alvin Scott Griggs.
GABRIELLE: Who named you?
MR. GRIGGS: Oh, gee – my mother and father.
GABRIELLE: Where were you born?
MR. GRIGGS: I was born in Meridian, Mississippi.
GABRIELLE: Where did you grow up?
MR. GRIGGS: Oooh, all over the country, I guess. I lived in about 4 or 5
towns before starting grade school. Gulf Port, Mississippi, St. Louis,
Missouri, Yazoo City, Mississippi, and Meridian.
GABRIELLE: Did you like where you lived?
MR. GRIGGS: Yes.
GABRIELLE: Do you have any children?
MR. GRIGGS: Yes.
GABRIELLE: Where do they go to school?
MR. GRIGGS: Here in Champaign?
Central High School and – yeah, Central High School, Bottenfield, Edison,
and Central.
GABRIELLE: So how many kids do you have?
MR. GRIGGS: Two boys, they’re no longer boys though.
GABRIELLE: Were you a teacher?
MR. GRIGGS: Yes, I taught.
GABRIELLE: What grade schools did you teach?
MR. GRIGGS: Kindergarten through 12th grade.
GABRIELLE: What made you become a teacher?
MR. GRIGGS: When I started in education probably we had a limited number of
avenues we could go and teaching was one – and probably the best outside of
being probably an undertaker or preacher.
GABRIELLE: Did you like teaching?
MR. GRIGGS: I loved it.
GABRIELLE: What was your favorite part about teaching?
MR. GRIGGS: Oh, my favorite part about teaching…watching people learn.
KIMBERLIE (Project Co-Director): Good, lemmie stop it for a minute. Very
good. Um, I wanted to just ask a follow up to what you said – there weren’t
a lot of opportunities? And that it sounded like teaching was one of those
opportunities? Could you explain that more?
MR. GRIGGS: Um, when I grew up and where we lived we had schools that was
considered – the school I attended to college was AMN which stood for
Mechanical – Agricultural Mechanical Normal. And then you could be – if you
wanted to be a farmer you could major in agriculture. If you wanted to be in
mechanics or something you could end up in a mechanical field of some sort.
And then ‘Normal’ was for teaching. And so we – those schools turned out
more teachers than anything else.
KIMBERLIE: Ok, and one more follow up to a previous one about the schools
you taught at here…could you just give Gabby the names of the schools that
you taught at in Champaign and the years?
MR. GRIGGS: Wow. Um, before you all were born I moved here and starting
teaching at Hayes School. Do you know where that is? Oh, well Hayes is now
King School. It’s in Urbana right down the street, not far from here. And I
started there in 1965 – taught 6th grade for a year. And then I wanted to
coach real bad since I was involved in sports in high school…then I moved to
Champaign so I could coach and I ended up teaching at Washington School,
Gregory School, and Marquette. Ever heard of those schools?
GABBY: Um, I had a question. Were Hayes – was Hayes School an all black
school?
MR. GRIGGS: Nope not exactly, but predominantly black. It was in the black
community. It still is.
DANIELLE: Um, what school did you go to?
MR. GRIGGS: I attended Druid High School in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Westler
Elementary School in Meridian, Mississippi, and then a few schools in
between. And I finished college in Pine Bluff, Arkansas.
GABBY: What were your school experiences like growing up?
MR. GRIGGS: Oh gee, hated school when I first started in first grade. In
fact, I would come home every day about – after lunch. Didn’t know why but
we found out later I couldn’t drink cold milk so I would get sick after
lunch. But after probably – when I got to high school I really enjoyed
school. Mainly because of sports and coaches…enjoyed the heck out of school
after that. Then went on to college on a scholarship and enjoyed it quite a
bit.
GABBY: So after early elementary school you loved school?
MR. GRIGGS: Yeah. I enjoyed most of my years in public school.
GABBY: What was Champaign like in 1968?
MR. GRIGGS: Oh, 1968…what was Champaign like? Compared to the cities I lived
in Champaign was quite different. I came from a very warm climate from the
south to the Midwest – it was cold. It was a beautiful city in terms of
buildings and streets and the cleanliness of the city…a large university –
one I’ve never seen before until arriving here. And we came here because of
the University of Illinois – for grad school. And I enjoyed it – loved it.
GABBY: So you like the hot weather better than the cold?
MR. GRIGGS: I don’t know now. I enjoy the change of season now. I like the
snow. I like the Fall and I love the Spring of the year so…
GABBY: So you like them all?
MR. GRIGGS: Yeah.
GABBY: What were the challenges and struggles? What were your challenges and
struggles?
MR. GRIGGS: Coming to Champaign, living in Champaign, raising a young family
– starting a young family, looking for housing, and trying to adjust to a
job and grad school and a family.
GABBY: Which school were you teaching at when the desegregation plan took
effect in Champaign?
KIMBERLIE: Excuse me – we’re going to do a follow up here. Tell me again if
you would why you had trouble finding housing in Champaign?
MR. GRIGGS: Haaa – that’s a good one. They had closed housing here and
blacks lived north of University Avenue and east of the tracks off of
Bradley and west of Lincoln so my first home was on Hill Street between
Lincoln and Goodwin. And blacks were not allowed beyond that area and then
around the late 60s they had open housing and blacks were allowed to move
throughout the community then.
GABBY: Um what would happen if you were over there in the area where you
weren’t supposed to be?
MR. GRIGGS: Oh are you talking about just visiting?
GABBY: Or just like walking around.
MR. GRIGGS: Nothing unless you were creating a problem. Um, I lived all over
the United States in different places in the south and in and out of every
community as long as you stayed out of trouble you were ok.
GABBY: What was your favorite home? In what state?
MR. GRIGGS: My favorite home in what state…oooh…uh if you’re talking about
growing up I guess my grandfather’s home. He had a – he was a carpenter and
he had a lot of tools and he had work sheds and he had all the things I
could work with so I enjoyed that all quite a bit. And I could do a lot of
things – kites – flying kites, hiking, swimming…so I guess my grandfather’s
– grandparent’s home in Meridian probably was the best home.
GABBY: Ok. What school were you teaching at when desegregation plan took
effect in Champaign?
KIMBERLIE: I’m sorry I’m going to interrupt again. Sorry. He talked about
closed housing. Was that a law? How did you know the housing was closed to
African Americans at certain parts of town. How did you know that?
MR. GRIGGS: Um, I think that was something on the books and then it was a
kind of a not covert but not an overt policy…I did see some covenant from
other communities that stated that blacks, orientals, and jews were not
allowed in the neighborhood – or in the subdivision. So I saw some of those
but it was part of the community.
GABBY: Um, so when you saw these signs or whatever stating that you couldn’t
stay there, how did you feel? Were you already used to that living somewhere
down south?
MR. GRIGGS: Um, it wasn’t shocking to me and it didn’t I guess create any
major problems for me. Um, I think I was surprised to see it here. In the
south you anticipated that but in the south we lived all over the community.
That was kind of strange too because we didn’t have pockets of blacks living
in one particular part of the community. In the south we lived all over the
community and all the neighborhoods pretty much because we worked in those
neighborhoods and they had housing for blacks in the neighborhood. So the
only thing strange about the south – you would have to go across town to one
particular school or to the movies or to other places.
GABBY: How did you feel when you knew that most black people had to live in
housing?
MR. GRIGGS: To live in certain sections of the community? How did I feel? Up
here in Champaign? I didn’t care for that, I didn’t like that and as soon as
they had open housing I immediately purchased a home on the south west side
of Champaign. So I stayed on Hill Street for I think three or four years and
as soon as they opened the door for blacks to move all over the community I
purchased a home in Devonshire.
GABBY: Ok. Which school were you teaching at when desegregation plan took
affect in Champaign?
MR. GRIGGS: I think I was working at Marquette, Gregory, and Washington and
I was teaching elementary phys-ed. And then the next year I moved to - the
late 60s I moved to Centennial High School as a coach and a phys-ed teacher.
KIMBERLIE: I’m going to stop you for one minute. This is good. Um, I’m going
to do another follow up. Mr. Griggs said, Gabby, that when he – when open
housing was implemented and he could move anywhere he wanted, he moved out
of the neighborhood that he didn’t have a choice to live in to a different
neighborhood. What was the housing like where you were quote “forced” to
live or where your only option was compared to where you moved to?
MR. GRIGGS: Well, I had a young family and – two boys. One about 7 years old
and the other one was less than a year or two and what I wanted was the best
school or schools for them and a community where they could enjoy
themselves. And what I mean by that is where they could play, parks, and
sidewalks and streets that were safe for them and for the safety because in
the neighborhood that we lived in on Hill Street I didn’t feel comfortable
with them playing and it was a very busy street too. And I needed a larger
home, also.
KIMBERLIE: Do you have a follow up to that? I do if you don’t.
GABBY: I was just going to ask, um did you teach black and white kids?
MR. GRIGGS: Yes I did.
KIMBERLIE: When you moved from the neighborhood you said the education – you
thought your kids would have a better education – what were the diff – what
were the school districts you moved from or the schools where – compared to
where you moved to…where you thought – it sounded like you said they’d get a
better education in the other neighborhood.
MR. GRIGGS: I thought so and I think it’s still true today that there are
certain schools and -they just made a change at Stratton School – I don’t –
do you remember when they made the change at Stratton a few years ago? They
moved all the teachers out, brought in new teachers and the test scores are
now improving – improved at Stratton. Ok, there was a reason for that. The
reason was to improve the education level in that building. I worked at
Columbia School – which is now Stratton – and I was there because I wanted
to work at Stratton. But in the certain schools in the community the
education is an up and moving thing. Schools kind of – if you go in and
evaluate the buildings and since I taught at certain buildings I could
recognize a good staff and good instructions and a good program. And I knew
that certain schools were better than other schools – and mainly because of
facilities, equipment, and staff.
GABBY: Ok. What did you think of the desegregation plan?
MR. GRIGGS: What did I think of the desegregation plan? And that is tricky
now for me because I’ve been through both a segregated system and coming
into a desegregated system and my children going through a desegregated
system…I think it was an advantage for me coming out of a segregated system,
and let me explain that. Coming out of the high school that I attended – and
this – it was very unique, the high school. It was called Druid High
School…it was a four-year high school. And it was a very large new facility
and the reason it was built – it was built to – for the community to
maintain segregation so an attempt was made to build a equal facility. And
they built a million dollar structure for the black students in Tuscaloosa
so it was a beautiful facility and the staff members were very good. We had
some quality in our staff – our teachers because they’re – they could not
teach anywhere else but in the high school. So we had some top-notch
teachers.
DANIELLE: How did your kids feel about desegregation?
MR. GRIGGS: Well that’s where I was going with that too. <laughs> I think
they liked some things because I grew up in a high school where we had a
prom and I was involved in that prom and I was also a class officer. I was
also the captain of the football team and I was involved in everything in
the school. And my kids did not have those opportunities coming into a
desegregated system and being a minority so they did not enjoy all those
things. So being a minority can have some negative effects on you in a
desegregated system. And I guess it can have some effect on you being a
minority in a – even in a segregated system if there’s a cast class system.
And they did have that in the south in black schools.
GABBY: Ok. What did you think that others think of the desegregation plan?
MR. GRIGGS: What did I think that others thought of the deseg plan?
GABBY: Or what do you think others thought about the desegregation plan?
MR. GRIGGS: Oh, well I survived two riots at Centennial and involved in a
very tense and hot situation during the sixties - racial riots in the
school. So one end of the community didn’t feel too good about deseg, the
other end probably was looking forward to desegregation, going to a new high
school, being involved but were not welcome at the high school where the
other students and families didn’t want them there. They were not welcome
and it took some time before that adjustment was made in that high school.
GABBY: Ok. Who in the community wanted desegregation and who didn’t want it?
MR. GRIGGS: A lot of the – I guess who wanted it…I guess the city fathers
thought it would make a better world, some of it was mandated by the state
and federal government. There was a civil rights movement going on in the
south and a lot of people watched that on TV and - in the northern areas and
wanted to improve the quality of life for everyone in their community. So it
was an effort made all over the country to improve the country. And so your
leaders got together in the community and said were gonna make it – try to
make it better for everyone.
GABBY: Can you tell me a story about a riot that happened?
MR. GRIGGS: Oh at Centennial? Ohhh…the kids from the north end were bussed
to Centennial High School. The school was a very new school at the time,
built during the sixties and was a high school I think in 67 – full high
school. And many of the people in the white community thought it was going
to be the white school in Champaign for the elite and that Central was going
to be – Central High School now – was going to be the city school for the
kids in the city. And the students on the subur - in the area around
Centennial would attend Centennial High School. Well that didn’t turn out
like that. It ended up where they decided to desegregate that school and
they bussed students into Centennial and the white community didn’t care for
that and there was some students in an organization that decided to change
it in their own way and they had two or three riots in the school.
GABBY: How did you feel about that?
MR. GRIGGS: Well as a staff member my job was to keep the peace and I didn’t
care for the attitude of some of the parents, I didn’t care for the attitude
of the community and I wanted to see it work - and it did. In fact I ended
up being an administrator in that school – I was the Assistant Principal for
fifteen years. So I stayed there until it started working. And it did work
and I guess it’s working fine now.
DANIELLE: I had a question…um how did the deaths of – the assassinations of
Martin Luther King and John F. Kennedy impact the community?
MR. GRIGGS: Wow. In a very negative sense in the black community we had some
real problems for a while in Champaign. Um, I wasn’t here during the
assassination of President Kennedy – I was in college then – ’63 <inaudible>
but uh, I was here when Dr. King was assassinated and it was a very
traumatic and negative thing that happened and it had some negative – quite
a bit of negative impact on the community.
KIMBERLIE: I have a follow-up. Um, I don’t know if Gabby knows exactly what
the riots were like. Can you tell her – when you said there were some riots
– what actually happened? What were kids doing, how did the staff respond?
Can you share any stories if you remember any from that time?
MR. GRIGGS: Oh yeah I remember quite a few. Um, I think what happened – some
students organized the evening before and we found out about it – the
administration. I was coaching and was told that some kids were coming to
school – white kids were coming to school with ax handles(?) and they did.
And I think the administration called for police to come out and give us a
back up but the police decided to go take the Savoy route and they didn’t
show up! So it was an effort on the part of a number of people in the
community and we felt that the police department was also involved. And so
the kids did meet the bus with ax handles(?). Do you know what an ax
handle(?) is?
GABBY: No.
MR. GRIGGS: It’s about that long and it’s a large piece of wood. And the
intent was to beat up some black kids. They met the bus that morning and
kids being kids that was difficult for kids being kids to do something like
that. SO when the black kids found out what was going on they did take some
of the ax handles(?) and they went in the building and…very upset. Now they
did have a few kids that were injured with those ax handles(?). One
seriously injured…um and they went in the building and they proceeded to
destroy some of the bookcases – and very angry and they went to the
cafeteria and they asked for the busses so they could go home. And they
stayed in the cafeteria with the ax handles(?) – black kids until they sent
the busses out for them to go home. By that time the police department had
made it so they had a little safety but they still didn’t want to stay. The
other riots and things took place - some in the building - where it was just
fights…large groups of students fighting, which we used the police
department and staff to break up the fights. And they closed the school down
for several days and had community meetings – and I attended all of those
community meetings. They were mostly white and I sat in on those meetings.
And there was some very negative comments and some things that – oh, I guess
I didn’t feel very comfortable with but I was able to sit through those
meetings. And then parents got involved from both sides and decided to
discuss the situation and bring the school back to some order – and they
did.
GABBY: What kind of punishments did the administration or maybe even the
police give to those students involved in the race riots on both black and
white?
MR. GRIGGS: Believe it or not the principal lost his job and they put in a
new administration. Those students identified in the riots were suspended
and then those students who left and refused to come back to school for a
while – nothing was done except to encourage them to come back and provide
some safety for them. But students – those students who were identified were
suspended.
GABBY: Was there a difference in the amount of punishment given to either
race?
MR. GRIGGS: I don’t know. I did not look at the records…now to be truthful,
I don’t think we had a – the school was closed for about four or five days
so that probably was enough there but I’m sure they entered some information
on the records of some students. But they changed the whole administration
at that time. All the principal – the principal and all the assistant
principals.
GABBY: You said also that you sat in on some meetings? Um, you said that you
were kind of uncomfortable with some of the comments that they made. Can you
tell us about some of the comments that they made and why they made you
uncomfortable?
MR. GRIGGS: Some of the comments they made about the students and some of
the - they made most of the – the meetings that I attended were in the
community and they held the meetings - some at school and some at some
churches in the community. And they made comments about the students, why
they didn’t want them there in the community, they called them – the
students-
GABBY: Talking about black students, right?
MR. GRIGGS: – right - animals, just any derogatory thing you can think of
and so yeah I felt uncomfortable with that and wanted to speak out but
couldn’t. I was there and I was there to listen and try to learn from that
situation but it was awfully tough.
GABBY: Did you ever get hurt when you were in a riot?
MR. GRIGGS: No, nothing serious. I had to stop a few groups from fighting
but nothing serious. I was coaching, and I was coaching the track team and
the football team and the cross-country team and I had a relationship with
the students – with all the students. And I also taught driver’s education
so you can build a good relationship with students. And I didn’t have many
problems – in fact, we moved in the cafeteria – I worked in the cafeteria
for two or three years after all this happened to kind of keep the peace and
didn’t have a problem.
GABBY: So when you say you moved to the cafeteria, were there more problems
in the cafeteria?
MR. GRIGGS: No, not after I got there. And Nicole Stortch(?) moved in, she’s
on the school board now and we worked as a team…and no, we didn’t have any
problems after that. We still had some pockets of problems in the building –
black and white students having problems. We kind of worked within the
groups on those – there was still some anger from both sides and it was a
work in progress. You can’t desegregate a integrated community overnight.
When people are not living together and working together its difficult for
them to be forced in a situation and become friends and working cohorts.
It’s difficult. So it’s a – it’s still a work in progress.
GABBY: What were your experiences with Mr. Barkstall?
MR. GRIGGS: With Vern? I was very close to Mr. Barkstall. I served on the
Urban League Board for – well I started in ’65 when I first moved here. We
had a team group – what they – what was called a group of students that we
worked with doing the weekend – they had career interest groups so I started
working with the Urban League then. I had a very good working relationship
with Vern and the Urban League felt he was a very progressive person and did
a lot for the community. There was some other people too now, there was Ken
Stratton and then there was another person named Burgis(?) – he was the
state’s attorney. Jim Burgis(?).
GABBY: Were – um did you ever work with Dave Downey on the Urban League? And
um – yeah.
MR. GRIGGS: Dave or Rupert(?) Downey.
GABBY: Yeah.
MR. GRIGGS: Dave was a basketball player at the university and there was a
Rupert Downey that was on the Urban League board and with Francis Nelson. He
was a social worker so – which one? Are you talking about the basketball
player or the-
GABBY: Yeah, the basketball player.
MR. GRIGGS: Uh, Dave I didn’t work with on the board but I do know Dave.
GABBY: Um, he wrote a proposal to the school board about desegregating some
of the schools. How did you and some of your co-workers in the community
react when the topic was brought up?
MR. GRIGGS: About desegregating the schools? What year was that? Do you
know? I don’t remember the-
GABBY: Yeah, 1968.
MR. GRIGGS: 1968…um…about the desegregation plan? I remember some of the
discussion – I know Mr. Barkstall was involved and Dr. Burna(?) and uh Dave
Downey – I do know some of the board members involved in that. What did I
think about it? I felt it was needed in the community but I felt that the
community itself needed to be desegregated. You can desegregate the schools
but when people live in pockets in the community – in certain segments,
that’s not going to help relationships. And students had problems getting to
and from school – from the schools and especially at Centennial when you –
we had extracurricular activities they couldn’t get home.
KIMBERLIE: I’m going to follow up on that – I have to go, excuse me. See the
difference is if you didn’t go to your neighborhood school and you wanted to
participate after school how did you get home? Could you, Gabby, pursue that
a little bit more…follow up to that…ask another question about that topic?
In other words if you want to participate in something but you’re relying on
a bus and if the bus takes you home right after school how can you
participate in those curricular activities?
GABBY: So how did you participate did you walk or?
MR. GRIGGS: For those students participating in extracurricular activities
such as football, basketball, volleyball, swimming, cheerleading – all those
activities – chess club, speech club – um they had a problem getting home.
Those busses would leave at a certain time. So we came up with several
solutions. First we asked for late busses and they started running late
busses around 5:00. Then after the late busses we put in – when they started
the MTDs – MTD – we asked for tokens and then we would give the students
tokens and they would use the bus token. And then we did something that was
illegal – would you believe that? We got some old cars and we left them
behind the building with the keys in them so when they finished their
practice they would get in their cars and drive them home and drive them
back the next morning. And the coaches would take them back. And the coaches
would take some of the students home – I did. A lot of the coaches would
drive students home.
GABBY: When desegregation occurred did you stay at the same school or were
you moved?
MR. GRIGGS: Uh I was moved from Washington School and Gregory and Marquette
to Centennial. I was hired at Centennial.
GABBY: How did the integration policy affect you personally?
MR. GRIGGS: Hmm…I don’t think it had a lot of effect on me personally. I
think the changing of the housing situation, which allowed blacks to
purchase homes all over the community, had the biggest effect on me and when
that happened, blacks started moving all over the community. And they moved
out in the Centennial area and other areas in the community and that made a
difference in the schools. You didn’t have to worry about bussing. They
lived in the community. Where do you live now?
GABBY: What do you mean like in what area?
MR. GRIGGS: Mhm.
GABBY: I live on Bradley.
MR. GRIGGS: And what?
GABBY: Bradley uh, it’s by-
DANIELLE:: What part of Bradley?
GABBY: It’s by Garden Hills.
MR. GRIGGS:. So you live-
GABBY: Bradley and McKinley.
MR. GRIGGS: Well back in the times they desegregated the school you couldn’t
live in your area. They didn’t have blacks living in that area. Where do you
live?
GABBY: I live in Garden Hills.
MR. GRIGGS: They didn’t have blacks living in Garden Hills.
GABBY: Nowadays it’s only black kids who live on Bradley.
MR. GRIGGS: Well blacks start moving west after the 60s.
DANIELLE: Ok, I got a question. When you were teaching or before you were
did you ever hear or make complaints about the school system?
MR. GRIGGS: When I was teaching and working in the schools did I file any
complaints? Official complaints?
DANIELLE: I don’t know, I mean just like talk around the town or at church
or wherever.
MR. GRIGGS: Uh no I worked with the community. My job as Assistant Principal
had a community liaison position and I was allowed to go out into the
community, work with the ministers and parents and put together groups –
discussion groups, bring staff members out to the community…we made more
home visits and church visits during the 60s and 70s than anything else. And
that was one way for staff to get to know the parents and the community and
it was a good thing for the parents to get to know the staff members. So we
did do that. I don’t think I – any complaints I had I would take it directly
to the individual or person. I had some concerns about some of the staff
members and some of the coaches and some of the things that happened. They
made some changes with some of the staff members and coaches…so where we
felt there was a need to make a change, we did. But we didn’t have to voice
protest to get it done.
GABBY: What did you think about moving around? What did you think about the
moving around of teachers and students for desegregation?
MR. GRIGGS: Um, I thought some of it was good. But lemmie say this – after a
while after we made the changes, some of the things reappeared. If you
remember Columbia school in the late 90s – in the 90s it ended up being a
very poor school. So some of the things, as you make a ste - two or three
steps forward, you back up also sometimes. Ok?
GABBY: Uh huh. Ok. Did the kids in black neighborhoods survive after
desegregation? Were new schools built?
MR. GRIGGS: Yeah, I think they did. They did survive but still there’s a lot
of work to be done in the community on improving the quality of life for
people. You have a lot of need for education. There are a lot of needs out
there.
KIMBERLIE: Lemmie ask you – I think – did the schools – did the black
schools survive or did some of those get shut down because of desegregation?
MR. GRIGGS: Um, here in Champaign – Washington school was turned into a
magnet school and did not – and did survive. Gregory School was closed
because of the old facility and also Marquette was closed because of
population. We had a decrease in student population so they closed some
schools. If you look at Judah – where Judah is it was a elementary school.
GABBY: What was school like after desegregation?
MR. GRIGGS: What was it like after desegregation? For a while it was very
tense in the community and it was a struggle because you’re talking about a
community that was changing. Change is difficult for people so it was a very
tense situation. I would think now that stress and tension is not there as
much. I do think there’s some things needed in the community improved – the
education system. And I don’t think the answer to education in the community
will all lie in desegregation. I think there’s a need for people to come
together and do some other things too. And it’s going to take the total
community – not just the school system. You’re talking about jobs, housing
and a lot of other things.
GABBY: Ok. Before I move on I want to know – were you an athlete? Did you
play any sports when you were in school?
MR. GRIGGS: Yeah I loved it. I was born to be an athlete. I don’t know why.
Yes I did and that was my claim to fame for my life I guess and I still
right now love it – if I can ever get out and enjoy it – uh yeah. High
school, grade school, and college.
GABBY: What sports did you play?
MR. GRIGGS: I played football and I ran track. I was on a track scholarship
in college.
GABBY: I ran cross-country this year.
MR. GRIGGS: Great, great. Did you enjoy it?
GABBY: No. <laughter>
MR. GRIGGS: Give it a try, keep going!
GABBY: I mean, I liked it at first but then they made us run like a whole
bunch so then I like, don’t like running anymore.
MR. GRIGGS: Yeah, I was a cross-country coach.
GABBY: How was she?
MR. GRIGGS: I said I was a cross-country coach at Centennial. I got my wife
started running and she’s running now.
GABBY: How many miles did you make them run?
MR. GRIGGS: We had a log and they would log about a good week – 30, 35
miles. It depends on the time of the year. If they were running meets then
we would back off on the miles, so…
GABBY: That’s a lot!
MR. GRIGGS: Mhm, yeah.
GABBY: We didn’t do that much but we ran like two or four miles a day.
MR. GRIGGS: We had two to three pairs of shoes per team member. When they
would wear out a pair we’d give them a new pair.
GABBY: So you guys provided the shoes?
MR. GRIGGS: Mhm. <laughs> We provided everything when I was coaching.
Including the meal money.
GABBY: They didn’t give us nothing.
MR. GRIGGS: <laughs> Yeah we – sweats – they would get shoes – they had
everything – transportation, yeah.
DANIELLE: Ok. What was school like for the students who got moved from one
school to another?
MR. GRIGGS: As far as the black community is concerned - it was one way
bussing now. Only in certain cases – some of the students from the south had
moved to Washington School – to the magnet school. But that was for – they
elected to do that – the parents volunteered to send their students to
Washington School. But as far as the black students it was one way bussing
so the students from Birch(?) Village for example, or Carvel(?) Park were
bussed to Centennial and Jefferson. So I think it was a struggle but I think
it worked out. I don’t think it was used as an excuse; I’ll put it like
that.
GABBY: We heard from one student who lived in the Central High school
district and was bussed to Centennial that there was racial unrest that were
<inaudible> one time the black students were met by angry white parents and
students after they got off the bus. What do you remember about this?
MR. GRIGGS: That was the riot I was talking about. I remember that riot
closing down the school for about a week or more. So it was a very tough
situation.
GABBY: Ok. Tell us about your background growing up – your family, education
and how it prepared you for your role as a teacher and for the desegregation
process in Champaign.
MR. GRIGGS: Do we have enough time? <laughs>
GABBY: Yeah. <laughter>
MR. GRIGGS: Um, I’m a very fortunate person, first of all. I have to say
that. My life has been very good. I live in a strange world. I’ve never had
any problems in my life and I’ve lived all over the – I guess the United
States if you want to put it that way. I was born in the south, lived in
Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, and my baby brother finished high school in
Tacoma, Washington. That’s northwest. So it’s a strange life. I guess one
reason is the church – United Methodist Church – my father was a United
Methodist minister and I got some things that other students didn’t
get…other people in the neighborhood…I was lucky to grow up in the church
with such a background with parents and family members – very strong family.
My father moved a lot preaching. He ran out of sermons real quick and they
moved him to another church. So that’s how I ended up in so many towns - and
I enjoyed that. You can say it was negative but I found out it was positive
for me. Now – especially now I go back to so many reunions - my high school
reunion, college reunion, hometown reunion…so it was a positive thing. So if
can go to three or four states for a reunion.
GABBY: Ok so when you moved around all those times, did you really care
about meeting new people and making new friends?
MR. GRIGGS: Oh yes. I cried all the way from Birmingham, Alabama to
Tuscaloosa, Alabama at the end of my 8th grade year because my father
decided to move before Thanksgiving. And we had made friends in Birmingham
and we were doing fine. And I had met a young lady and I was enjoying myself
and he decided to uproot us. And boy I was upset over that. So the first
thing I – we did – we had a habit of doing this. We would meet the people in
the neighborhood and try to establish some friendships – and we did. We
learned certain things that you don’t do when you get in a community. First
thing – you don’t talk about anyone. You find out all the relationships
first before you talk about people. <laughs> And so – and you try to locate
the people you want to enjoy in the town. So you take time in establishing a
real close relationship and you pick and choose for a while. And then after
you find the people you want to hang out with, you do. But I learned a lot.
I know how to meet people. There’s – I’ve never met a stranger and it’s
difficult for my wife to meet people. She grew up in a small town in
Arkansas on a farm and she finds it difficult to meet people. I don’t have a
problem. I can move through and talk with people and do what I need to do so
I feel real comfortable. And my life was great – I did so many things. I’m
going to give you some ideas and – I used to caddy – I learned how to play
golf on the golf course. And I used to caddy at the country club – I enjoyed
the heck out of it cause they would let us play on Mondays and they had a
tournament – a golf tournament. And when it was cold we moved to the bowling
alley and we ended up setting pins and bowling. And in the summer we had
summer camps. I would go to summer camp each summer. I was a boy scout, a
cub scout and I enjoyed the heck out of those things - learned to swim and
canoe and all the arts and crafts and how to identify birds and trees and
poison ivy. <laughs>
GABBY: Um, when you moved – well actually now – like all the places you
lived – do you still keep in touch with some of your friends?
MR. GRIGGS: Yes, I do. And I have a lot of friends. In fact, one stopped
through this Saturday, one called me Monday, and Saturday night I got a call
from Los Angeles, California and we talked until almost midnight on a friend
that I’m very close to. And then I got a call from Atlanta, Georgia
yesterday and then a friend from Aurora dropped by and I – I have from my
high school friends and I had a cousin who stopped by and she’s going to
watch the game with me tonight. She lives in the southern part of Illinois
so, yeah. I stay in touch.
GABBY: So – I forgot my question I was going to ask you. But um, who else
can we talk to who was a teacher at the time, black or white, about
desegregation? Can you suggest the names of any parents or students who were
affected by desegregation?
MR. GRIGGS: There are some administrators I would recommend but they’re not
in town now and if you could do your interviews on the telephone that would
be great. Jim Casey was the principal at Columbia and at Franklin too when
Franklin was an elementary school. Murphy McKinney was the principal at
Garden Hills for a while and he was the assistant principal at Jefferson for
many years. And I’m assuming you discussed – interviewed Ms. Suggs? She’s in
town…parents uh…I didn’t prepare a list but I’m sure I could come up with –
there’s a number of parents. Um, in fact lemmie – Ms. Wilson I think is
still in town, Ms. Nez___(?) – there are a number of parents. If you would
like a list I could provide that.
GABBY: Ok. Um I have a couple of other questions. Do you still travel?
MR. GRIGGS: Yes I love to travel.
GABBY:. And how long have you been married?
MR. GRIGGS: <laughs> Tomorrow’s my anniversary. It’s going to be 40+ years.
GABBY: Happy anniversary.
MR. GRIGGS: Thank you. Yeah it’s going to be about 42 years tomorrow.
GABBY: That’s long.
MR. GRIGGS: It’s a long time, yeah. I’ve enjoyed it.
GABBY: Well we wanna thank you for coming today and letting me interview you
and – that’s pretty much it.
MR. GRIGGS: I enjoyed it. Thank you for inviting me – keep up the good work.
GABBY: Thank you.
END
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